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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

presidentti.fi

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#471

Post by thematrixturtle »

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #137
thematrixturtle wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For readers not versed in Finnish politics, the only party with a majority opposed is Vasemmistoliitto (Left Alliance), the rebranded former Finnish Communist/Socialist party.

This is not a neutral characterization. They are not communists in the sense that they would oppose capitalism. A real communist party exists as well. They are left of US democrats, and major driver seems to be identity politics.

The Left Alliance is the successor of SKDL, which started out as a thin disguise for the banned Finnish Communist Party after the Soviets arm-twisted the Finnish government into allowing it. Obviously their politics have been diluted since the early days, but older folk recall their heritage well.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#473

Post by phicoh »

cycomanic wrote: post #396
phicoh wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NATO actions happened after a huge number of crimes against humanity committed in former Yugoslavia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia It is not as if NATO randomly invaded Serbia.

Yes I am aware, and I didn't meant to equate the bombing of Serbia with Russia's invasion of Ukraine if you understood it this way. I simply meant it as an example were NATO as an "entity" arguably broke international law. I say "arguably" because there is some debate about this.

I think this is a clear case where war is just very messy. It is easy to come up will all kinds of legal frameworks during peace time. And then a war situation will not be what you expect.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#474

Post by [deleted] »

klibertp wrote: post #244
donthellbanme wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This post was dead when I stumbled upon it. I don't agree with it, for the obvious reasons, including the fact that I'm not American. Yet, my understanding is that this kind of opinion is shared by a large number of US citizens. I don't believe censoring it is the correct way to deal with it - it's not even off-topic as we discuss NATO membership in the first place.

[deleted]

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#475

Post by tokai »

logifail wrote: post #162
sph wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can Russia pressure and disrupt the process when NATO members are the ones most afraid of Putin? Finland's doing this only because of Russia's actions. I can't imagine anybody vetoing Finland's membership. In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger.

> In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger Umm ... wasn't that what people thought of the alliances and treaties[0] just before the First World War? [0] https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-you-need-to-know-about-p...

And they defeated Germany and dismantled the Austro-Hungarian empire. So it worked.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#476

Post by CRConrad »

ngcc_hk wrote: post #58
ngold wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is rather apt. And mirroring Russian claims to disarm nazis in Ukraine and take over the government in 3 days. Only to get sanctioned into economic doom, and have Ukraine forever supplied with the teeth of all western nations. It did not work out so well. We are all rooting for spinal cancer.

If they did it bit by bit then all nato can be a target. There is a strategy about this as far as yes minster goes about nuclear bomb detention. You just very hard to press the button if the other side just bomb say another country not in nato. And even if … Coalition never easy work especially you do not give them pressure. Thanks in a dark sense Russia basically sealed the Ukrainian identity and possibly the nato.…

> How can a chess playing nation think so badly. Just bomb others to surrender … Mongolian blood?

Yeah, pretty much. The Russian army in Ukraine apparently consists disproportionately of recruits from Dagestan, Tatarstan, Tuva, etc, etc. Ethnic Russians are under-represented.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#477

Post by Sharlin »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #93
klausjensen wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK has also made written guarantees to protect Finland (and Sweden) during the application process. In practical reality, if Russia were to attack Finland or Sweden now, the answer from NATO would be pretty much the same as if they were already members.

> In practical reality, if Russia were to attack Finland or Sweden now, the answer from NATO would be pretty much the same as if they were already members. Really? Why is this true of Finland but not Ukraine?

Because NATO has the initiative here. The guarantees, unofficial or not, now function as a deterrent for possible Russian aggression. A promise/threat to join a hypothetical future conflict is very different from joining an existing conflict. One is a deterrent, the other is escalation.

Besides, Finland has been a close NATO ally for a long time, shares NATO values, our military is already 100% NATO compatible, and we are strategically and geopolitically a pretty important piece of the puzzle.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#478

Post by doikor »

golergka wrote: post #10
nine_zeros wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it was just friendliness towards Russian people? This war is entirely political. Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries.

> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. Most Russians that a typical HN user would encounter — English-speaking, educated, probably with skills in demand inside and outside Russia — don't. Typical Russians, on the other hand, are quite openly fascist at this point.

Don't mistake of thinking that the educated or political elite in Saint Petersburg or Moscow are not mostly in favor Russian supremacy over Ukraine. A lot of them truly do think that Ukraine is just a part of Russia and killing anyone there who thinks othewise is just fine. A lot of them look back at the Soviet or imperial times with rose tinted glasses and say "this was when Russia was at its best".

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#479

Post by baq »

Borrible wrote: post #16

"When we look across the border now, we see a Finn on the other side. If Finland joins NATO, we will see an enemy." Putin to a Finnish journalist in 2016 according to Finnish President Sauli Niinistö in an interview with the German magazine 'Der Spiegel' https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/finnish-president... I guess, the russians are finnished.

[insert 'select all squares with finnish snipers' meme]

Anyway, Putin says a lot of things. He doesn't see a friend in anyone, never has, never will. An enemy is just a small downgrade from status quo.

> I guess, the russians are finnished.

Da.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#480

Post by CRConrad »

bitL wrote: post #282
sorenjan wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is pressuring Russia, that's Russian propaganda. They want to paint themselves as attacked and surrounded, but it's them attacking sovereign neighbors and trying to expand beyond their borders. Who would have any interest in invading Russia? China attacking from the east would probably make more sense than NATO attacking from the west, but I've never heard anyone suggesting that as a realistic event.

It's not about how we perceive a threat to them, but how they perceive it. It makes no sense to destroy one's economy for Ukraine, yet here we are, so their calculation considered it more important.

When Russia's perception is out of whack with the actual facts of the world, it seems smarter to adapt Russia's perception to the actual facts.

Russia chose to try the other way. Sooner or later it will end up with them having to adjust their perception anyway.

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