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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#391

Post by logifail »

calf wrote: post #367
logifail wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it diminishes. NATO is a defensive alliance. The more members it has [..] A similar line of argument about alliances and treaties preventing war was used before the First World War. We all know how that ended.

It's also a bad concept. Defensive alliance is a loaded term, but people use it in arguments as if it was a well defined mathematical object.

> Defensive alliance is a loaded term

It also doesn't appear to be a very accurate description of the things NATO has been getting up to since the end of the Cold War.

"[NATO] has been involved in military operations in the Balkans, the Middle East, South Asia, and Africa"[0]

You don't have to be a spin doctor to realise that what seems like "defence" to one person is another's war of aggression.

German defence minister Peter Struck memorably said in 2004 that "Germany was also [being] defended on the Hindu Kush".[1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO [1] https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/service/bulletin/rede...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#392

Post by herbst »

wiseowise wrote: post #380
herbst wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda broad statement for a direct citation. However feel free to browse the Wikipedia article about the Ukraine many if not most of their recent crimes are listed there.

Surely you can link at least one.

Ok I guess? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situ...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#394

Post by xdennis »

mcv wrote: post #180
alkonaut wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has argued that having NATO on its borders is a threat. Talk about missiles within range of Moscow and so on. Obviously these comments make no sense. But Russian domestic politics is always using a narrative of being a victim and having risk of being invaded. The Second World War doesn’t exist in Russian storytelling. The great patriotic war on the other hand, conveniently started in the 40s. The Finnish borde…

It's vital for Russia to put the start of WW2 in 1941, because if they put it in 1939, like everybody else, then the USSR would have been just as much the aggressor as Nazi Germany, with invasions of Poland and Finland in 1939, and the Baltic states in 1940. Fortunately for them, at the time the West didn't care enough about Poland and the Baltics, and somehow cared more about the German invasion of Poland than the R…

> with invasions of Poland and Finland in 1939, and the Baltic states in 1940

And Romania in 1940.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#395

Post by herbst »

SyzygistSix wrote: post #386
herbst wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. But only since Russia started invading. When news about Ukraine were still all about their corrupt government, breaking human rights, their horrible prisons and more like that nobody thought Ukraine to to 'close' or anything. It's obvious the whole perception of Ukraine just suddenly changed because Russia is the bad…

True. Before there was little common ground but now the populations of countries like the US, Baltics, and Poland have significant common ground and feel much closer to the Ukrainian people because of the common value of freedom and sovereignty, both of which are held very dear. There is nothing strange or hypocritical about that.

It's kinda hypocritical as Ukraine is standing for much but not any of these values in recent history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situ... but I totally see your point.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#396

Post by cycomanic »

phicoh wrote: post #373
cycomanic wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer the previous posters question. I actually am well aware of the crimes committed by NATO members (I would argue that they were not under NATO mandate though, except maybe Serbia, but that's a different argument). BTW the most atrocious crimes go back way more than 20 years. I also know that many western nations have been very nonchalant about violations of international law by their own allies, and I…

The NATO actions happened after a huge number of crimes against humanity committed in former Yugoslavia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia It is not as if NATO randomly invaded Serbia.

Yes I am aware, and I didn't meant to equate the bombing of Serbia with Russia's invasion of Ukraine if you understood it this way.

I simply meant it as an example were NATO as an "entity" arguably broke international law. I say "arguably" because there is some debate about this.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#397

Post by tyleo »

refurb wrote: post #243

Anyone see any resemblance to the defense treaties of WW1?

Not quite. My understanding of WW1 is that the defense treaties were like multiple nets that all made enemies of each other come wartime. Today it seems that NATO is one big net and Russia is more or less an isolated node with no seriously powerful country to call to for help.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#398

Post by simion314 »

aa-jv wrote: post #254
simion314 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The CIA has entered the chat. If you are not a Ruzzian troll go to a subrredit for n eastern country and ask the people there what they think about NATO and Russia, like go to r/romania . I assure you we don't need CIA propaganda to understand the danger Russia was and is for our freedom and unfortunetly for our brothers in Moldova that got screwed hard and might get cewed more in future but the Russians. Though I c…

I live in Eastern Europe, its why I have a balanced view of the situation. There are as many states in this region who want to ally against NATO because of its war crimes and crimes against humanity - however I wager those states are not on your radar since you clearly live inside the media bubble created for you by the literal makers of bombs to be dropped by NATO forces in future wars .

You live in Serbia? Does Russia has a claim on parts of your territory ?

I am old enough that I have heard direct reports from people that fought in the war and meet the Russian soldiers and people that lived under communist regime , so GTFO with your shity claim that who does not agree with you is an idiot that media corupted his mind not to live Russia.

Let me tell you, I don't love USA and I don't like the shit they done in Afganista,Iraq , I don't like what they did with the nuclear bombs in Japan, I don't like what they are doing with Assange but the fact is Russia is a bigger danger for my country and we were begging to enter NATO not because of love for USA but because we are fucking scared of Russia, and we are scared of them because we know not from media but from our direct experience what they are capable of.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#399

Post by teh_klev »

unmole wrote: post #226
srg0 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey is a NATO member, but it didn't join the international sanctions.

But they closed the Turkish Straits.

> But they closed the Turkish Straits.

But they didn't. Turkey only upheld the conditions of the Montreux Convention:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#400

Post by JKCalhoun »

phatfish wrote: post #233
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thank you. i am not sympathizing with anyone for that matter. i am pointing out what i observe.... you know when america invaded iraq for "WMDs" and they turned out to be nothing and literally nothing happened? "strong anger" does not equate to waging a war against america like its being done against russia. let me ask you, you and me are neither americans nor russians. did the world care when america invaded afghani…

Do you really need to ask why? Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. As for Iraq, yes people did care, there were large protests in London and Tony Blair is still hated by the general public in the UK. I don't know the real feeling in the US. The UK government didn't listen because Tony wanted his ego boost on the world stage. The only NATO backed war of th…

> I don't know the real feeling in the US.

About half of us called bullshit the instant "WMDs" were paraded as the reason to go to war.

And I think the other half have, over time, come to see the whole operation as a regretful waste of time, money, and lives.

So, no, I don't think there are any fans of the U.S. invasion of Iraq still around. Some of us are still incensed by the lies that were trotted out though.

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