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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

presidentti.fi

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#361

Post by fsloth »

stoltzmann wrote: post #138
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have a problem with one news headline breaking news about "russia massacre in ukraine" where ukraine is the oppressed/underdog and that same news channel half an hour later celebrates how ukranian fighters destroyed X russian tanks and all. if ukraine is fighting tooth and nail against russia(with or without help) they are equals so non-participants should abstain from taking sides. otherwise they are essentially j…

There is a significant difference between Russian soldiers killing civilian population, and Ukrainian soldiers destroying enemy tanks that are invading their country. One is a despicable war crime, and the other one is a heroic act of defence.

This is the only objectively correct stance. No ifs. No buts. This is a surprisingly clear cut war for modern times with one party (Russia) being the illegal aggressor and Ukraine being the heroic rightful underdog defender.

Every tank Ukrainians blow up is to defend their families for rape, murder and torture.

Nobody forced the Russians to invade. Any claim to such end is a deluded fabrication.

Pacifism is simply not a morally viable stance when a country is invaded by such a brutal force. We should not cheer the loss of life. But we should support 100% Ukrainian heroism and their efforts to defend their country.

Propaganda is one of the theaters of modern war. Ukrainians seem to be quite adept at it. But this does not make their position any more suspect.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#363

Post by aa-jv »

formerly_proven wrote: post #342
aa-jv wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland joining NATO benefits the military-industrial complex immensely . There are HUGE profits to be made in the effort required to get NATO and Finnish military standards aligned.

Bullshit. Both Sweden and Finland have "NATO-compatible" militaries and took part in many NATO exercises over the years.

.. and will now be recipients of billions in funding towards the cause.

Don't even try to pretend NATO isn't a major profit center for the American military-industrial complex. That is the only reason for its funding and existence in lieu of actual diplomacy and sane foreign policy.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#364

Post by CRConrad »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #92
greencore wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current Croatia's president Zoran Milanović is planning to veto this. Parliament and PM is against veto.

What’s his rationale?

That Finland and Sweden should recognise the Croatian sub-part of Bosnia-Hercegovina as an independent country, IIUC.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#365

Post by pndy »

RandomLensman wrote: post #336
aiilns wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Isn't NATO a product of the cold war, meant to stand as an alliance against the USSR? A defense alliance must be, by definition, against someone, be it Russia or China. And isn't it a tool for the US (mainly) to serve their interests & enforce their will around the world? See Kosovo, Afghanistan, Libya. 2) "Allowed" yes, disregarding the sanctions/embargo in place these last 60 years. 3) My geography knowledge is…

1) Of course, joining NATO is picking a side. 2) But still Cuba was permitted to stay within the Eastern block. Why did Russia not choose to just sanction Ukraine then but allow NATO membership (that would the comparison) 3) Yes, of course, but really surrounded by NATO members. Could you imagine Russia permitting a NATO exclave inside Russia? And Russia certainly makes it sound like they have nuclear weapons there (…

3) Call it "Russian exclave that hosts missile systems" then, not "Russia has nuclear weapons inside NATO" because someone who's not familiar with European politics, borders might read it as "Russia installed missile systems inside NATO country" which is simply not true. It's quite important to be precise on this.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#366

Post by KptMarchewa »

mach1ne wrote: post #237
fsloth wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Surely the risk of NATO being involved in any conflict only increases as NATO grows?" No, it diminishes. NATO is a defensive alliance. The more members it has with credible military spending (which Finland has) the higher the cost for Russia to invade.

I should add that Russia desires the Baltics, which are in an awkward position to defend by NATO. Finland has a strong military and its proximity to those countries makes an incursion somewhat less likely.

That was the leading thought before we were shown how ineffective Russian conventional military is.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#367

Post by calf »

logifail wrote: post #322
fsloth wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Surely the risk of NATO being involved in any conflict only increases as NATO grows?" No, it diminishes. NATO is a defensive alliance. The more members it has with credible military spending (which Finland has) the higher the cost for Russia to invade.

> No, it diminishes. NATO is a defensive alliance. The more members it has [..] A similar line of argument about alliances and treaties preventing war was used before the First World War. We all know how that ended.

It's also a bad concept. Defensive alliance is a loaded term, but people use it in arguments as if it was a well defined mathematical object.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#368

Post by hugg »

omega3 wrote: post #340
hugg wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope not. To me it seems very unnecessary (please hear me out), first of all, it seems to be the common idea that Russia is losing the war, has a weak military, cannot invade another country successfully, but at the same time, we should be afraid of them? I've heard the argument that it's the nukes that we should be afraid of, but does joining NATO really mean that they will surely not use them? I also assume that…

> we should be afraid of them? If all the war crimes, targeting of infrastructure, civilians, hospitals, forced deportation, looting, torture, setting up of artificial breakaway states hasn't so far convinced you then I'm afraid nothing ever will.

And it still seems realistic to you they will somehow invade Sweden by land and do these things?

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#369

Post by KptMarchewa »

Wildgoose wrote: post #312
simonh wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO is purely a defensive pact, nowhere in it's charter is there any provision for initiating hostilities and there is zero political support in the west for aggression against Russia or the acquisition of Russian territory. Until February the west was absolutely more than happy to funnel billions into Russia in return for oil and gas, and almost pathologically avoided any thought of taking any action that might aff…

NATO aggressively bombed Serbia over the issue of Kosovo. I don't know how anyone can seriously claim "NATO is purely a defensive pact" with a straight face. I think that bombing Serbia was probably the rupture that has led us to the terrible situation we have in Ukraine now.

Being a "defensive pact" does not exclude preventing genocide next to it's borders.

The fact that you call it "the issue of Kosovo" is telling.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#370

Post by lnxg33k1 »

donthellbanme wrote: post #164
M2Ys4U wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. I highly doubt that any of NATO's members will veto an application from Finland (or Sweden).

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