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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

presidentti.fi

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#81

Post by rightbyte »

ssl232 wrote: post #52

Usual caveats that I'm not a diplomat, don't have all the facts, etc etc., but this doesn't seem like a rational move for Finland or NATO. The UK just yesterday agreed to protect Finland in the event of an attack, and the UK's involvement would likely bring in many other NATO powers anyway, so arguably they're getting protection they'd otherwise have to pay for for free. And actually, officially joining NATO will hav…

Finland should have applied for NATO 10 years ago or in 10 years, not now with the tense situation.

They are essentially stating that Russian gov. is aggressive enough to be a threat to them in the future but not agressive enough right now to create a "border dispute" to prevent NATO membership.

My take is that they should just have stayed out of the Russia US power game completely.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#82

Post by tpmx »

Timeline (from Swedish press yesterday - Omni):

Today, May 12: Finnish president Niinistö presents his view on the NATO issue.

Friday, May 13: A new Swedish security policy analysis is presented in parliament. All 8 parties represented there have collaborated on this.

Saturday, May 14: Heads of the Finnish Social Democratic Party meet and decide on the NATO issue. Swedish and Finnish FMs join a NATO meeting in Berlin.

Sunday, May 15: Heads of the Swedish Social Democratic Party meet and decide on the NATO issue.

Tuesday/Wednesday, May 17/18: Finnish President Niinistö visits Stockholm.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#83

Post by greencore »

sph wrote: post #47
thematrixturtle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This more or less seals Finland applying for NATO membership. However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. Russia is also obviously deeply unhappy about this and will do its best to disrupt the process via direct and indirect pressure.

How can Russia pressure and disrupt the process when NATO members are the ones most afraid of Putin? Finland's doing this only because of Russia's actions. I can't imagine anybody vetoing Finland's membership. In fact, the more the merrier^Hstronger.

Current Croatia's president Zoran Milanović is planning to veto this. Parliament and PM is against veto.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#84

Post by aa-jv »

alkonaut wrote: post #42
skrebbel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO has been on Russian borders for almost 2 decades (and way longer if you include Norway, but that border is arguably too remote to really count). So what plan, exactly?

Russia has argued that having NATO on its borders is a threat. Talk about missiles within range of Moscow and so on. Obviously these comments make no sense. But Russian domestic politics is always using a narrative of being a victim and having risk of being invaded. The Second World War doesn’t exist in Russian storytelling. The great patriotic war on the other hand, conveniently started in the 40s. The Finnish borde…

>Obviously these comments make no sense.

Its not so obvious if you've been paying attention to NATO expansion, as compared to NATO promises.

NATO bases have been being used to launch crimes against humanity and war crimes (with seeming impunity) for decades - the Russians have good reasons to want NATO to stand down.

The West has a long and sordid history of committing war crimes, and then ignoring their war criminals - indeed, leaving them in charge with cart blanche to commit yet more wars.

This fact seems easily ignored by those rooting for NATO's triumph, but for those of us who have been paying attention to the Wests' war crimes - for decades - the argument that 'there is nothing to worry about because NATO are innocent' falls very, very flat.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#85

Post by andruby »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #69
thematrixturtle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This more or less seals Finland applying for NATO membership. However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. Russia is also obviously deeply unhappy about this and will do its best to disrupt the process via direct and indirect pressure.

>However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. I highly doubt that any of NATO's members will veto an application from Finland (or Sweden).

How about Hungary and it's seemingly pro-Russian leader, Orban? They could vote against.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#86

Post by pigeonhole123 »

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #46
golergka wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what plan, exactly? That's a question on everyone's mind about this whole invasion. I guess I should have said “idiotic justification as portrayed by Russian propaganda” instead of “plan”.

i am not an american, nor russian. i come from a third world country far from this drama. to me, "russian propaganda" is the same as "american propaganda" which demonizes the other and calls their version as the "ultimate truth". don't americans/west see their media/actions as what it is, propaganda aganinst russia? blocking RT across america/EU is seen as protecting free speech but god forbid if russia reciprocates…

I've never seen or heard anyone complain about Russia banning American companies.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#87

Post by aa-jv »

bergie wrote: post #67
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am not an american, nor russian. i come from a third world country far from this drama. to me, "russian propaganda" is the same as "american propaganda" which demonizes the other and calls their version as the "ultimate truth". don't americans/west see their media/actions as what it is, propaganda aganinst russia? blocking RT across america/EU is seen as protecting free speech but god forbid if russia reciprocates…

Now, your comment format follows a pretty typical pattern utilized by paid Russian trolls, so I'm likely wasting my time here. But anyway: There is a slight difference between de-platforming Russian propaganda channels in the West, and Russia jailing anybody speaking about the war in any other terms than those approved by Kremlin.

No post body was provided.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#88

Post by jonathanstrange »

tovej wrote: post #66
wodenokoto wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a completely different league of dislike. It's not like American TV shows aren't playing on Finish TV, or cinema hardly plays Hollywood movies. If there was a true dislike, it should affect media consumption.

People consume what's available, and what's available is US media. Nobody in the west can catch up to the US in media production because the US is the biggest producer of English language media. English language media has the largest market in the west because English is spoken by nearly everyone as a second language, and US media reinforces this English language status, since people pick up the language due to its a…

I can't comment about the specific situation in Finland but generally this does not seem to be true. Due to a EU directive, streaming Providers like Netflix have to offer at least 30% of local content but these are not watched proportionally. The most popular content remains English/international. For example, according to a 2020 Netflix survey 25% of most viewed titles in Spain were local, with the UK (10%), Germany (8%), France (8%) and Italy (8%) following.

As for music, Finland is known for their unusual and thriving Tango, Polka, and Heavy Metal scenes but most consumed music is nevertheless produced in the US and the UK. This doesn't have much to do with what is offered, it's just more popular. Generally speaking, popular culture is global in all Western countries, with English as the lingua franca.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#89

Post by martimarkov »

andruby wrote: post #85
M2Ys4U wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. I highly doubt that any of NATO's members will veto an application from Finland (or Sweden).

How about Hungary and it's seemingly pro-Russian leader, Orban? They could vote against.

They can also be kicked out ;)

Edit: Here is some thoughts one it: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/28337/on-what-g...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#90

Post by aiilns »

alkonaut wrote: post #42
skrebbel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO has been on Russian borders for almost 2 decades (and way longer if you include Norway, but that border is arguably too remote to really count). So what plan, exactly?

Russia has argued that having NATO on its borders is a threat. Talk about missiles within range of Moscow and so on. Obviously these comments make no sense. But Russian domestic politics is always using a narrative of being a victim and having risk of being invaded. The Second World War doesn’t exist in Russian storytelling. The great patriotic war on the other hand, conveniently started in the 40s. The Finnish borde…

> Talk about missiles within range of Moscow and so on. Obviously these comments make no sense.

Why doesn't it make sense? I'm not for Russia nor for NATO, but what is the purpose of the alliance if not against Russia as a remnant of the cold war?

Wasn't the same kind of reasoning used by the USA for Cuba resulting in its ~blockade~ "quarantine" and almost war/invasion?

It seems to me there's a certain rhetoric meant to cast Putin as a crazy warmongering dictator who foolishly wishes to revive the Soviet Union. In part this may be true, but it seems to me that these arguments are meant to distract our gaze away from the US (and NATO in extension) as the global superpower it is, how historically it has moved against the USSR and Russia and its part in the world stage.

*Obviously Putin/Russia is to blame for invading Ukraine.

edit: Adding a few words because I think I have not been clear. I'm not arguing for Russia or against NATO. I'm arguing that from Putin's perspective it makes sense; an alliance historically against the USSR, now expanding near Russia's borders can be seen as a potential threat.

The rhetoric is "I was watering my garden and some crazy guy attacked me", but that is removing the context. And that context exists even if you believe that NATO=good & Russia=bad.

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