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Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

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Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone in American politics uses fight metaphors. Not every political movement erects a gallows outside the Capitol and then breaks and enters to look for legislators and the Vice President to hang.

Trump explicitly asked his people to be peaceful in his fight metaphor which is more than you could say for many others.

OTOH he also said he'd march with them to the Capitol, which presumably would have served as a form of leadership and given him some potential authority to further discourage violence. Instead, he (at best) decided to blow the whole thing off and leave the angry mob to its own devices for a few hours.

Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're leaving out the fact that those tweets were sent two days after an insurrection in which Trump used Twitter to target the Vice President with a mob. In the days thereafter, Trump was being urged to cool things down because tensions were still red hot. Instead, he refused to back off the very narrative that got people fired up enough to literally assault our democratic process. There was a legitimate worry that…

Insurrection? The most armed civilian segment in the entire world, that didn't bring their guns to this fantastic insurrection event?! The same group who was let into various private chambers, for maximum effect, sometimes walking so close to single file that it would bring a tear to a second grade teachers eye... If that's your definition of insurrection, there can be infinity more of them on my platform.

My definition of an insurrection is a coordinated violent movement intended to overthrow the government. Pay attention during the Jan 6 committee hearings next month and then get back to me, because it appears you haven’t really been paying attention to the developments on that front if you believe guns weren’t brought on Jan 6.

Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump was a fairly average right-wing politician. Another Bush, or McCain, or Romney would have nominated the same Supreme Court Justices and had more or less identical policy. The few times Trump went against the grain he was overruled in the House and Senate, and ultimately he peacefully transferred power to the next president despite the rioting after he lost the election. So the implicit argument that he was some…

> I remember in 2016 the exact opposite people were claiming the election was rigged and the results needed to be overturned. One difference is Hillary Clinton officially conceded the morning after the election in 2016, meanwhile Trump to this day, a year and a half later, still insists he still won the 2020 election and that it was rigged. Those people you're referring to in 2016 also didn't storm the Capitol trying…

>One difference is Hillary Clinton officially conceded the morning after the election in 2016

Nope. Hillary withdrew her acceptance of the 2016 election results (https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-electi...>).

Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#324
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of how it works, though, innit: wannabe autocrat demagogue gets a bullhorn, uses it to leverage power via populist rhetoric, then shoves activist justices onto the bench — who, surprise, do their activist thing... That's the "very little connection" you're missing.

Even RGB said that Roe vs Wade was on questionable constitutional grounds. Calling them activists is pretty ridiculous.

And the new decision is on even less constitutional grounds. There is nothing in the constitution that allows a state to force a woman to carry a baby. But it happens to be their preferred judicial activism, and therefore somehow not applicable.

Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#325
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of how it works, though, innit: wannabe autocrat demagogue gets a bullhorn, uses it to leverage power via populist rhetoric, then shoves activist justices onto the bench — who, surprise, do their activist thing... That's the "very little connection" you're missing.

Those judges were all Bushites (see their backgrounds and how they didn't help Trump steal 2020). Trump was the most pro-choice Republican in a while, he just didn't care at all about the Supreme Court and outsourced it to the very pro-life Republican establishment. If Jeb or Romney had won in 2016 this would have probably happened earlier

I'm sure he didn't care. It's not as though there is video of him...

Oh, right. There is.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/trump-i-will-be-appointing-pro...

Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#326
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of how it works, though, innit: wannabe autocrat demagogue gets a bullhorn, uses it to leverage power via populist rhetoric, then shoves activist justices onto the bench — who, surprise, do their activist thing... That's the "very little connection" you're missing.

"Activist" is not a charitable description of any of the justices. It is widely accepted that _Roe_ was on unstable legal grounding, at best.

Whatever one thinks of the legal grounding of the Roe decision, those criticisms pale in comparison to throwing stare decisis out the window and trying to make an enumerated-rights argument without even addressing the 9th amendment[1] in the room.

Charitable descriptions are, at this point, unmerrited.

[1]"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"

Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#327
post #137
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

proven guilty of what ? Any evidence ?

We could get into the detail but I won't, it's a waste of time here. But the very denial of the election result, and all that stems from that, is enough. If you can't see that, then you're a bigger fool than most of us.

Lots of people deny the 2000 election. Lots of people deny the 2016 election. Lots of people deny the 2020 election. Why is denial of 2020 worse than any of the others? Stacy Abrams is still claiming her election was stolen. Denial of elections is quite common in the US.

Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#328
I agree with reversing the ban.[1] Right along with many others.

Frankly, permabans really need thinking through.

At a minimum, multiple bans, or feature limits should precede them, and there should be required process associated with a permanent ban, including appeals.

That may seem excessive and or burdensome. I agree.

Small venues that do not come with considerable life implications can and should be exempt.

Big venues are making plenty of money, or have the means to do that, and are interwoven with society to a degree worth the effort.

In general, the cancel moves we see rising in prominence are not answers in themselves. Trump sucks. Alex Jones sucks, and arguably more!

Banning them was not helpful. It does feel good to those who dislike their speech, but it had near zero impact on others who value and seek more of their speech. Closing the door hard luke that hardens those people, who then present notable resolve to follow a favored speaker and or act on their behalf.[0]

What is does not do is open them up to receive remedial speech of any kind.

Having the media then attack these people, often speaking for them, is not a good look particularly given the level of error (and I am being charitable) in their own speech, often labeled authoritative. Again, despite considerable error.

Finally, we have and will continue to see this abused to silence both critics and competing speech. This speech is both necessary and prior to massive media consolidation, considered normal, healthy behavior in a functioning democracy.

I should also mention there is a shared burden related to speech we do not like and that burden lies with any of us and how we choose to respond to speech we do not like.

That offense can be gamed is a problem too. People are as offended as they think they are and the basis for said offence varies widely. A claim of profound offence can be made and others have very little to validate it with.

At a minimum, responding to speech we do not like with righteous indignation generally escalates the dialog into unproductive meta. Almost any other response will fare better. Other responses include: humor, questions, rebuttals, redirects, reconsideration... any of which can take a conversation t9 a productive, far less harmful place. Emphasis on how we all manage incoming speech would do a lot of good, rather than the ongoing harm being used to cast the idea of free speech aside and or solidify some entities as authorities, sans meaningful checks on their speech, which also gets abused. The most common abuse is manufacturing consent.

[0] Source is behavior observed in a fair number of people who fall into one or more categories implied by my comment.

[1] That is not an endorsement of any kind.

Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#329

It's not surprising that someone who sounds like a sort of free speech absolutist agrees that permanent bans are bad for the idea of free and accessible speech. The problem I have with some free speech purists is that they give me a feeling that they are persons who are more often than not unaffected by speech that can be categorised as inciting hatred towards a people, and thus they see little to no problem with bei…

Those people know how to manage their response to speech they do not like. Should we free people of that burden, the range of permissible speech will be a small subset of speech overall.

The outcome of that is few people being able to have real conversations. Contrived, Disneyland type discourse would then be the norm.

Frankly, that would inhibit understanding one another and further limit speech.

At some point, people must weigh incoming speech and manage what they do with it or there simply will not be all that much left to be said.

Re: Jack Dorsey says he agrees with reversing Trump's Twitter ban

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The women of his country already saw what one term of Trump did to the rights they thought they had." I see very little connection between anything that might be deemed "unacceptable" speech by Trump and the imminent overturn of Roe . Other than the fact that he got elected.

His entire platform was "say shit to piss people off." It's what got him elected, and what allowed him to pack SCOTUS. That's not even hyperbole, their campaign tried very hard to replicate this success in 2020.

Didn't his opposition run on the same platform and still continues to run? Making his supporters the worst possible people while openly supporting domestic terrorist ideologies and organisations. And being racist and pro discrimination.
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