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Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

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Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#91

Post by commandlinefan »

jollybean wrote: post #58
commandlinefan wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced It already has been outsourced and then re-insourced as soon as the quality was evident.

'Hiring cheap body shop devs. from poor country X' - is not what's happening here. This is not 'offshore body shop' movement. It's the 'hire from anywhere movement' because 'remote working' ... and anyone doubting this is in for hard awakening. The underlying assumption that US devs are somehow 'better' is absurdly wrong. US businesses are often better, for a variety or reasons, pushing up the salaries of those who c…

> The underlying assumption that US devs are somehow 'better'

Who ever said that? 99% of US devs are Indian devs anyway - in 30 years of developing software I've probably only ever worked with a few dozen US natives. Devs in the same time zone, with at least a passing knowledge of US culture, on the other hand...

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#92

Post by rchaud »

usrn wrote: post #59
causi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the money still goes into the American economy. They buy food, housing, insurance, consumer goods, services. Immigrants are a huge financial boon because we get an adult that Americans didn't have to pay for. Prenatal care, delivery, food, childhood education, all of that gets paid for by somebody else and then we get the product of their expenditure for free. That's like every single immigrant donating one o…

We don't want them buying housing, we have a housing shortage.

Who should buy the housing stock then? Investment funds that will convert the homes to long-term Airbnbs?

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#93

Post by RestlessMind »

Called this out 10 months back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27696235

The most FAQ is "hey we tried it in 2000's with outsourcing and nothing happened. why worry now?"

The answer is "now with fully remote, it is easy to replace a USA team member with a Mexican or Canadian or Brazilian and do it one by one. boil the frog slowly. and very soon, majority of your team will be outside USA".

I am still watching it happen at my current shop. Majority of new hires and new headcount is from other countries.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#94

Post by RestlessMind »

zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

> If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced

This time is indeed different. Copying my answer from elsewhere in this thread: "now with fully remote, it is easy to replace a USA team member with a Mexican or Canadian or Brazilian and do it one by one. boil the frog slowly. and very soon, majority of your team will be outside USA. I am still watching it happen at my current shop. Majority of new hires and new headcount is from other countries."

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#96

Post by LegitShady »

ARandumGuy wrote: post #20
keikobadthebad wrote: post #4

'Tech industry' has offices in India, China, Canada already to exploit the cheaper labor directly.

India, Canada, and (especially) China also have their own 'tech industries,' which are able to hire talent locally without dealing with the headaches of having an international team.

Canada doesn't have much in the way of a "tech industry" because all the new grads who can move to the US for much higher pay and few unicorn companies (like shopify) stay here. Many of the offices in Canada are here for the purpose of hiring people from other countries who can't get through the US immigration system. Housing has become insanely expensive and people aren't getting paid enough to offset the high cost of housing. Meanwhile our government is importing low wage low skill workers via the temporary worker program for things like fast food restaurants because people don't make enough to get out of fast food while working at fast food, so they have trouble attracting workers.

The bottom line is canada is quickly becoming a place to import workers from cheaper countries to keep pay low while any Canadians who have the education and experience flee to the USA for higher wages.

I've seen it in my lifetime with non computer engineering disciplines. A structural engineer making 70k because it's easy to import them from other countries and it drives wages down. The last PEO survey I saw said something like 2/3rd of Canadian engineering grads are not finding work in their industry of choice at all.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#97

Post by SauciestGNU »

lucumo wrote: post #50
joshstrange wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, wake me up when cheap outsourced developers actually works out. I've yet to see it. I have nothing against foreign developers but most of the outsourcing shops I've had the displeasure of working with are 0.2-0.5X developers at "only" 0.6+X of the cost. I know there are developers in other countries that can run circles around me but they aren't working for pennies. Also this mindset completely disregards thi…

> Agreed, wake me up when cheap outsourced developers actually works out. This actually happens quite a lot in my West-European country. Companies that aren't too picky about language knowledge can get cheap(er) Eastern European developers to do a lot of work. It works out well for the company. I'm one of the last expensive local developers, so I work with them quite often. These developers are well-educated and very…

Agreed, before the war I worked with an outsourced team in Ukraine, and I was blown away with the quality of their work and the professionalism of all the devs I talked to in that shop.

That being said, I'm not worried about outsourcing. I believe I bring enough value to the table to withstand those pressures, even if eventually I have to take a wage hit to compete.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#98

Post by a_imho »

jollybean wrote: post #79
a_imho wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming remote people are OK with being second or third class employees. I'm not sure how long this is going to be true in the post covid world. https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...

? Nothing I said about that assumed those employees would accept being 'second or third class employees'. They're going to be 'employees'. Now - they will be paid less - yes (maybe that's what you meant?) But that's a function of supply and demand. They will absolutely accept 'less' because it's where they sit on the supply/demand curve.

Discrimination is not a function of supply and demand, it is a function of lack of legal protection. One can argue underleveraged groups does not deserve equal treatment unless they can overpower their situation, but personally I disagree with that opinion. I also totally understand if someone feels their salary is under threat and does not want to treat others fairly due to that. To be completely honest, there is a nonzero chance I would do the same if I was on the good end of the deal as well.

I'm not holding my breath over the situation changing in the near future, but 2 years of remote work do make people reconsider things.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#99

Post by polski-g »

vsskanth wrote: post #66
usrn wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't want them buying housing, we have a housing shortage.

"They" are not the cause of the shortage. You will have a housing shortage even without "Them" because of zoning issues and housing supply shortage.

It's both

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#100

Post by jollybean »

a_imho wrote: post #98
jollybean wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? Nothing I said about that assumed those employees would accept being 'second or third class employees'. They're going to be 'employees'. Now - they will be paid less - yes (maybe that's what you meant?) But that's a function of supply and demand. They will absolutely accept 'less' because it's where they sit on the supply/demand curve.

Discrimination is not a function of supply and demand, it is a function of lack of legal protection. One can argue underleveraged groups does not deserve equal treatment unless they can overpower their situation, but personally I disagree with that opinion. I also totally understand if someone feels their salary is under threat and does not want to treat others fairly due to that. To be completely honest, there is a…

Your ideas are mixed up here.

Companies are not 'discriminating' against people in other countries due to 'lack of legal protection'. They are just hiring people in other countries, and paying them what they are worth.

That's it.

It's 100% supply and demand.

There are good and bad developers everywhere, and cost of living and opportunities are different everywhere.

Supply and Demand will work itself out.

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