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Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

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131–140 of 149 posts

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds way too detached from the actual purpose of the institution. I literally don't understand what you mean. The purpose of the institution is to educate people (and other stuff.) They do that by investing money that they were given for this exact purpose. What on earth could the problem with that be? No only are they providing education to people, often for free, they're also lending people money to build and d…

It's just a very foreign concept to me as a european. Perhaps I'm more inclined to the idea that institutions like education and healthcare should be publicly funded and shouldn't aim to be economically sound, as some services can only be done properly at loss. In 1992 in Italy hospitals became "hospital companies", meaning what was once a public service with the sole aim of providing the best possible treatments to…

> It's just a very foreign concept to me as a european.

But it comes from Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_endowment#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_endowment#Modern_col...

> incomes, expenses and a budget

Government-provided healthcare also has an income, expenses, and a budget. They don't just spent whatever they want with no planning and no income.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#132

Sorry to depart from the feel-good narrative, but this kind of student labor is token or symbolic at best. The kinds of jobs that students can perform are not nearly the kind of jobs that a college with a physical plant to maintain, professors to pay, finances to administer, etc. can make a meaningful dent in. (By and large), students are not going to be doing electrical work, maintenance, financial accounting, admin…

>> Having students work is not a bad thing. My first day of law school. Big intro lecture from the Dean. "Quit your part-time jobs now. The amount of money you can earn waiting tables is a pittance compared to your tuition and scholarships." He had a good point. A student's job is to study and learn. People fail out of law school all the time. Every minute doing anything else other that studying increases the risk of…

This is basically how I see most cases. I did work a part-time job for a few semesters, but it was really easy and I never felt I was sacrificing my education. I dropped it after holding it for a few of my early semesters to free up time to maintain a happy study/free-time balance.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Having students work is not a bad thing. My first day of law school. Big intro lecture from the Dean. "Quit your part-time jobs now. The amount of money you can earn waiting tables is a pittance compared to your tuition and scholarships." He had a good point. A student's job is to study and learn. People fail out of law school all the time. Every minute doing anything else other that studying increases the risk of…

Better advice would be "Spend $7 to read Don't Go To Law School (Unless) and then quit law school." https://jakeseliger.com/2012/11/11/dont-go-to-law-school-unl...

One can argue plusses and minuses, but my time at law school was very productive and, despite my winding down my practice for something new, benefits me to this day. Law school is what you make of it.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a very foreign concept to me as a european. Perhaps I'm more inclined to the idea that institutions like education and healthcare should be publicly funded and shouldn't aim to be economically sound, as some services can only be done properly at loss. In 1992 in Italy hospitals became "hospital companies", meaning what was once a public service with the sole aim of providing the best possible treatments to…

> It's just a very foreign concept to me as a european. But it comes from Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_endowment#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_endowment#Modern_col... > incomes, expenses and a budget Government-provided healthcare also has an income, expenses, and a budget. They don't just spent whatever they want with no planning and no income.

I mean, the roman empire, ancient greece and in modern times Britain. Britain is European as much as USA is. Not really common in contemporary Europe.

The article itself notes that it's common practice only in North america, and when it is used outside of USA it's in a different way:

>In the United States, the endowment is often integral to the financial health of educational institutions. Alumni or friends of institutions sometimes contribute capital to the endowment. The use of endowment funding is strong in the United States and Canada but less commonly found outside of North America, with the exceptions of Cambridge and Oxford universities

> Government-provided healthcare also has an income, expenses, and a budget. They don't just spent whatever they want with no planning and no income.

Of course, but there is a big difference in having a regular accountability and starting to think in terms of business. Suddenly intensive treatment beds become "centers of cost", not vital but expensive tools required to save lives.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one (of several) reasons why improved education is far less effective at increasing economic productivity than is commonly thought. (For more on this I highly recommend Ha-Joon Chang's 21 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism, which has an excellent chapter on the topic.) You touch an excellent point that I never factored in when looking at why western government organizations demand free education in…

I'd never quite reached the point of thinking it was a deliberate action, but now that you mention it. And add to this liberal skilled-worker visa entry programmes with work-to-stay requirements. Rich nations to poor: you raise 'em, train 'em, and pension 'em. We'll work 'em, pressure down their wages and bargaining power through work-to-stay reqs, and capture all the surplus labour value. Bond villains, eat your hea…

> I'd never quite reached the point of thinking it was a deliberate action

I always thought these aid and loan programs through organizations like IMF, WP, and countries require return on their investment beyond interest on principal.

This is why they include clauses related to education, democratic participation, financial and taxation reforms, etc as a condition of receiving the aid.

You can be less cynical and think they are advocating for reforms which make these countries grow and pay back the loan otherwise they might default.

You can be more cynical and think many of these policies are detached from what is needed on ground looking at impact.

For example, opening a particular industry or providing consumable aid often distort local markets and might impact local businesses and exports through currency manipulation.

Maybe you believe onerous regulation and compliance of first world without the enforcement budget and low corruption make these places less attractive for businesses. Introducing those as condition of receiving aid might be net negative in the long run.

It all depends on how you view with your lens.

Although countries who are receiving aid like this have no choice in the matter. They are desperate for cash. Power imbalance exist and can be abused.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you hint at, I think you would quickly find that the university would look like it's run by a bunch of slumlords, with things falling apart, and no one responding when the toilet gets clogged or the wifi goes down.

Why is it that people think it's okay to give 18 year old a machinegun and a granade and to send them to kill, or trust them with a 40 ton vehicle, but they can't be trusted at basic everyday life? Even teenagers are perfectly capable of most administrative tasks. People rise to the challange, if the environment is right

You're confusing the issue. Soldiers, even 18 year old ones, are doing that as their profession full time and trained to do so. (aside from the overall question on whether it's good to be having kids trained to kill).

Students are students. Their job is to be students, not administrators or full time workers. That's why things run and maintained by students typically don't have the follow through and professionalism of people who are paid to do it.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly true that students can't produce enough value by cooking food and sorting mail to pay for the cost of a modern US college tuition, but there are some specific areas where I do think students can perform high-value "jobs", and which are currently underutilized. - Internships/co-ops prove that students in high-skill degrees can command high wages by working for industry. How can we capture similar sorts…

> Professors command high salaries I guess it depends on what you mean by "high". At most institutions, faculty will make $50K-$60K starting, max out at $100K, and often do not have access to a pension. In many states, you're really better off, financially, as a high school teacher or police officer. Which, I mean, high school teachers are highly paid by some standards. But saying professors command high salaries on…

> undergrad-lead core courses tend to be a disaster

My university (Olin College) was undergraduate-only, but your general point about good teaching being a rare skill is definitely valid. Our student body was definitely pretty high caliber both technically and in terms of explaining-things skills.

> it's probably not feasible to run core major requirements with undergraduate instructors as a steady-state

This seems to be mostly false, in the sense that many schools run huge class sizes for many core courses (cough couch Berkely) and in practice non-TA instruction in those courses could be pretty easily replaced with videos. It's not ideal, but seems to work OK.

> For an intro programming course serving all students, you really need a professional educator who is practiced at going through the slog of helping people understand for loops.

This is certainly true if you just hire some students and tell them to do their best, but I think you might be underestimating how much better intentionally-designed support resources can make the process. For example, it's reasonable to provide instruction for the instructors on how to be effective, and invest more in quality video or written content to explain technical details that a student might not be able to articulate well. In my experience, being taught by student instructors definitely also helps prepare students to teach as student instructors, in a virtuous cycle.

Many of the tools for doing this well don't exist in a cohesive form today, but to the extent that people are working to make education cheaper, this seems like a promising direction to investigate.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that people think it's okay to give 18 year old a machinegun and a granade and to send them to kill, or trust them with a 40 ton vehicle, but they can't be trusted at basic everyday life? Even teenagers are perfectly capable of most administrative tasks. People rise to the challange, if the environment is right

They don't trust 18-year-olds to tell the people with guns who to shoot at, or where to drive the trucks, though. Anyone who has operated in a student-run organization will tell you that when you're doing anything complicated (like managing a college IT department), the ~4-year limit on institutional memory is a serious issue, especially when it involves people who mostly don't have the experience to be proactive abo…

'They don't trust 18-year-olds to tell the people with guns who to shoot at, or where to drive the trucks'

Both soldiers and drivers can be alone for hours and sometimes have to make life-or-death decisions during that time.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which Gentleman (or lady?)? supernova87a, himinlomax, or vt85

My original reply to > loquation > Living in a country, where there basically is no college tuition in the US sense and scale, this sounds all so alien to me. There's nothing "utopian" about it. From my perspective, it's more of an ideological problem than anything else . was responding to my perception that his or her written / implied sentiment was conveying that it's so strange that students would need to work to…

> students as a special class of people who should be insulated from having to work

You already believe that, you just disagree on the definition on student. Or should we take 14 year olds out of school and send them back into the coal mines?

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professors command high salaries I guess it depends on what you mean by "high". At most institutions, faculty will make $50K-$60K starting, max out at $100K, and often do not have access to a pension. In many states, you're really better off, financially, as a high school teacher or police officer. Which, I mean, high school teachers are highly paid by some standards. But saying professors command high salaries on…

> undergrad-lead core courses tend to be a disaster My university (Olin College) was undergraduate-only, but your general point about good teaching being a rare skill is definitely valid. Our student body was definitely pretty high caliber both technically and in terms of explaining-things skills. > it's probably not feasible to run core major requirements with undergraduate instructors as a steady-state This seems t…

> This seems to be mostly false, in the sense that many schools run huge class sizes for many core courses (cough couch Berkely) and in practice non-TA instruction

Berkeley is not a good counter-example.

There are usually several teaching professors doing a full time job behind the scenes -- handling a myriad of student crises, handling a huge quantity of special accommodations, plagiarism and other academic misconduct, behavior issues (on the part of both students and staff!!!), constant question bank maintenance, constant schedule tweaking, interfacing with faculty demands from down-stream courses, and so on. Those are all trivial, though. Most important -- by far -- is training and managing a large course staff most of whom have never taught a recitation or graded a homework assignment!

Scaling up from a class of 1 instructor and 40 students (at Olin 20 or 15 I'd guess?) in one class to class with 40 staff members and 1000+ students and several lecturers is its own skillset. Those instructors are not teachers. They are mid-level managers. It's a different job, and not one that most undergraduates are prepared to take on.

And the face that it's a machine matters. Teaching a few recitations or lab sections and grading homework is not even remotely the same as instructing a course.

It's a bit like saying that you don't need experienced management at a logistics company because, after all, everyone learns how to do the warehouse job within a week. True, but keeping that machine running requires institutional memory and is itself a full time job. And just because you can train cogs quickly doesn't mean many of those cogs would do a particularly good job at designing and operating the underlying machine. Or even a miniature version of that machine.

> but I think you might be underestimating how much better intentionally-designed support resources can make the process.

Having spent time both inside and outside the elite academic institutions, folks who use places like Olin or Berkeley as barometers for "normal" are wildly out of touch with 90+% of the 4,000 colleges and universities in the USA.

Students at places like Olin or Berkeley are already the cream of the cream of the crop. At Olin or Berkeley you have a handful of good student-educators every year. At normal places the acceptance rate is closer to Olin's reject rate, and the applicant pool is way lower quality. At normal places an above average Olin kid comes around once a decade or less, and the annual cream of the crop at Olin or Berkeley simply never pass through.

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