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Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

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Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#81

Post by ajsnigrutin »

BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #53
mbaytas wrote: post #48

One thing that strikes me from this article is a vast bureaucracy, regulation, credentialing structures, accounting, etc. that the story revolves around. In Sweden, where I live, there are plenty of educational opportunities available to people completely free of charge. Entirely subsidized by the government. Instead of assembling elaborate bureaucratic structures, the state spends its money paying school admin and t…

When I went to university (in Sweden), a lot of people were just pottering around, taking additional courses to delay having to get a real job, so I suppose that should be factored in when comparing efficiency between different systems as well.

I live in slovenia (also taxpayer paid colleges), and the situation here is the same.

First issue is, that basically everyone wants to study and actually goes to study, even if it's underwater basket weaving, and they already know that there are zero job prospects even at the time they are filling out the forms to go to college (~middle of the fourth year of high school).

The second is, that college gives you some benefits (almost free college dorms, food coupons, due to student-status, you can work student-type of jobs with some tax benefits, etc.), even people who wouldn't otherwise study, enroll just to get the "status", and people who want to study eg. english literature, but are not accepted for that programme, enroll to eg. electrical engineering, that they have no interest in, but it's easier to get in, and they still get the "student status".

The third is, similar to the second, even when they should finish their college (hopefully graduate,... or quit), they try to prolong the studying process, to keep the "student status" longer.

And the fourth, when they actually finish college, especially the ones with "useless degrees" (the ones, that there are no market needs for) have issues getting a job, since a lot of employers for "shitty jobs" (baristas, etc.) prefer hiring people with student status, due to much simpler hiring and firing process, much simpler bureaucracy and a bit better taxes.

So yeah... we (the taxpayers) pay a lot of money for a lot of students who either intentionally study stuff that we don't actually need (and the added value of that education in the later job (eg. barista with a masters in ancient greek) is basically zero), and for students who just abuse the student status for all the benefits and student work, making job-seeking harder for graduates.

There is also an additional problem of people studying something that the job market needs (medicine, engineering, CS,...), and then leaving the country the moment they graduate and never paying back their studies (because they never pay taxes in our country).

There are many alternative systems, that I'm not 100% they'd work better, by eg. colleges charging some tuition, and then graduates having to stay in the country and work in the field that they studied for X years (so their degree gives them some added value in their paychecks and then taxes that would bay their tuition back passively), or paying back their tuition directly if they want to leave or do some other, unrelated work.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#82

Post by balsam »

supernova87a wrote: post #27

Sorry to depart from the feel-good narrative, but this kind of student labor is token or symbolic at best. The kinds of jobs that students can perform are not nearly the kind of jobs that a college with a physical plant to maintain, professors to pay, finances to administer, etc. can make a meaningful dent in. (By and large), students are not going to be doing electrical work, maintenance, financial accounting, admin…

Yeah, it doesnt make sense to make school more like work. Homework is already despised, how can schooljobs be anything more than that? What about making work more like school? Making corporations more like college? Some may prefer that.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#83

Post by Chris2048 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #77
vt85 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is.

Do we have some kind of trophey to give this gentlemen? Like 'stubborn and presumptious of the year'? Its like writing to tell people they are illiterate

Which Gentleman (or lady?)? supernova87a, himinlomax, or vt85

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#84

Post by lwkl »

qznc wrote: post #31
supernova87a wrote: post #27

Sorry to depart from the feel-good narrative, but this kind of student labor is token or symbolic at best. The kinds of jobs that students can perform are not nearly the kind of jobs that a college with a physical plant to maintain, professors to pay, finances to administer, etc. can make a meaningful dent in. (By and large), students are not going to be doing electrical work, maintenance, financial accounting, admin…

It reminds me of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system This system is only used in German-speaking countries but it works there. The basic is that students are employed by a company and work there half the time. In return the company pays for the studies in the other half.

That‘s not how this works in German speaking countries in Europe.

The school is paid for by the tax payer and the company pays the apprentice a salary that should represent the value they create as an apprentice.

The company also pays for additional courses organized by their guilds. For programmers and system administrators this might be how to build a pc or a network or how to build some software project.

It‘s a great system for companies and apprentices. I think there are even some Swiss companies that try to build similar programs in the US because they have a hard time hiring in the US.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#85

Post by phoe-krk »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #25

This is what I get when I try to visit the website: > Our European visitors are important to us. > This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with applicable EU laws. Besides the irony of "being important" and GDPR [0] not having been solved for a simple website, this is the first time in a long while that I see something…

> This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with applicable EU laws.

Should instead read:

> This site has been unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area for years, because it makes more economic sense to us to sinkhole Europe rather than bother to comply with GDPR.

Things suddenly start making sense when you look at them from this point of view.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#86

Post by himinlomax »

DoughnutHole wrote: post #71
vt85 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is.

You believe that people in countries that fund college tuition genuinely don't understand that it comes from general taxation?

Not only that, but the OP mentioned tuition specifically. Tuition is the fee you may have to pay to attend college. If there is no such fee to pay, whether the money comes from donations, taxes, a trust fund, a lottery, intellectual property royalties or what have you, there is indeed no tuition.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#87

Post by LudwigNagasena »

laGrenouille wrote: post #56
godelski wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's best to think of them not as saving accounts but financial instruments. I mean I get that (not that a bank isn't a financial instrument...) but to what ends? The example I gave is should be clear, because of the large wealth of money that is. $54bn is no laughing matter. Stanford has $30bn. These are sums that completely pay for the operating costs of the universities and students. On interest. If the point is…

Using Harvard as an example, they had an operating expenses of $5.0 billion in 2021 [1]. In order to cover that, they would need to be having a consistent rate of return around 9% on their ($54 billion) endowment. That a fairly good estimate of the rate of return for the stock market over the past 25 years, so not unreasonable. Though, this ignores that most of the endowment consists of restricted funds that can only…

> they had an operating expenses of $5.0 billion in 2021

Isn’t that a crazy number? How much of it goes to a bloated bureaucracy?

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#88

Post by laGrenouille »

tallanvor wrote: post #59
laGrenouille wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using Harvard as an example, they had an operating expenses of $5.0 billion in 2021 [1]. In order to cover that, they would need to be having a consistent rate of return around 9% on their ($54 billion) endowment. That a fairly good estimate of the rate of return for the stock market over the past 25 years, so not unreasonable. Though, this ignores that most of the endowment consists of restricted funds that can only…

I was taught that you should estimate a 4% rate of return, which means Harvard's endowment can cover around 40% of their budget. Much of the remainder will come through research grants, and a rather small percentage will be tuition and fees.

Yes, that's what I learned as well. And that's actually close to what Harvard reported using last year ($2.1 billion from the endowment; 40% of the budget).

I was only using the more aggressive number as a thought experiment to the original poster about what it would take the cover the entire operating budget.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#89

Post by throwawaycities »

supernova87a wrote: post #39
godelski wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be unsurprising since most colleges/universities already have student workers. From places in admin, campus guides, working odd jobs like the cafeteria or library, or many other places. The two schools I've been to limit these workers to 20 hrs/wk (so it is part time and they can be "full time" students). But this is nowhere near enough to pay for tuition. It is really just "beer money" (about $300/wk if…

Harvard, or other universities, are not too different from other corporations. Why would they offer to pay for something that their customers themselves would pay for? After all, a Harvard degree is quite valuable, and who's reaping the benefit of it? They want to make as much money off their endowments (savings) as they can, and spend as little of it as possible on things that they don't need to pay for. Note that w…

> They are no different than many corporations.

Harvard is significantly different than most corporations because Harvard doesn’t pay taxes.

Yet Harvard is not a typical not for profit either, as you won’t find many non-profits with a $53B treasure chest.

> If you want altruistic behavior and free tuition, well, you want a slightly different system.

Yes, the majority want a different system, your average person doesn’t really like the fact institutions like Harvard/Yale have a combined ~$100B tax free war chest and supply 8 of the 9 lifetime appointments to the Supreme Court.

Re: Colleges where everyone works and there's no tuition

#90

Post by MereInterest »

supernova87a wrote: post #29
loquation wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in a country, where there basically is no college tuition in the US sense and scale, this sounds all so alien to me. There's nothing "utopian" about it. From my perspective, it's more of an ideological problem than anything else.

You're just confused over who's paying for it. Someone is, I can guarantee you that. And it's not student labor. I'm not differing on the point that free tuition might be a good thing. The (unspoken) point of this story was to suggest that student labor might be enough to make a college solvent.

If I put out a sign that says "free chocolate", it would be silly to respond by saying that somebody must have paid in time and/or money to produce the chocolate. Because that's entirely obvious, and not the point. When somebody points out that "free tuition" or "free healthcare" have monetary inputs, that's a pointless response to a strawman misinterpretation. Saying that we should have "free tuition" isn't at all a statement that education should somehow magically be done without any effort on the part of society. It's a statement that the costs of education shouldn't be shouldered by those receiving the education.

This is even referred to in loquation's post, by describing it as an ideological problem. I agree, and would pose the ideological question as follows: Should education be treated as an individual investment or a societal investment? If it is an individual investment, then it should be paid for by the student either up front or through debt, and that investment is recouped directly through higher income. If it is a societal investment, then it should be paid for by society as a whole (i.e. publicly funded through taxes), and that investment is recouped indirectly through opportunities that require a more educated society.

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