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The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

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Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#51

Post by robonerd »

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #10
georgeg23 wrote: post #7

There were protests at SpaceX when it was revealed the Turksat 5B satellite would command and control these TB2 drones, extending their range from operator line-of-sight to near global. Elon decided to go ahead with the launch. At some point we need to start calling SpaceX a defense company.

Do people not consider SpaceX a defense company? At the very least I thought people always considered it dual-use

As a "get to Mars" company it makes very little sense, they've invested virtually nothing into colony technology, just rockets. Mars is to SpaceX what manganese nodules were to Hughes' Glomar Explorer, a flimsy cover story that only seems plausible because everybody knows the guy in charge is wacky. I believe the real purpose of their attempt to create a rapidly reusable heavy lift rocket (Starship) is to rapidly replenish a massive constellation of expendable interceptors in LEO, for ballistic missile defense.

Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#52

Post by monkeybutton »

gostsamo wrote: post #32
robonerd wrote: post #2

> Several news sources have reported that a single TB2 drone can be purchased for a million dollars, but Bayraktar, while not giving a precise figure, told me that it costs more. In any event, single-unit figures are misleading; TB2s are sold as a “platform,” along with portable command stations and communications equipment. In 2019, Ukraine bought a fleet of at least six TB2s for a reported sixty-nine million dollar…

The ukrainians are repurposing small civil drones and old soviet shells to attack russian targets on and behind the lines.

Aerorozvidka:

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-cheap-grenades-expensive-tan...

Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#53

Post by openasocket »

glogla wrote: post #46
greedo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheaper to use a drone for spotting instead of a FIST unit. That's what's working for the UA. Kamikaze drones have a role for the smaller units, but at the battalion level, it's better to use a surveillance drone to coordinate fires from mortars, MLRS and artillery. The rounds fired from these systems typically have longer range than a drone, a higher rate of fire, and larger warheads.

I think these are pretty complementary. Switchblade 300 is a 10km range Javelin (same warhead in fact) with integrated surveillance capability that can go beyond range of sight. It is not there to replace mortars, artillery and MRLS, which are area weapons.

switchblade 600 has the Javelin-like warhead, switchblade 300 has something equivalent to a 40mm grenade for a warhead

Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#54

Post by robonerd »

ISL wrote: post #23
emteycz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a trucking company a defense company if they ship something for the military? Or the same with air transport?

If they can precisely deliver ~22 tons of material from Florida to anywhere in the globe in ~20-50 minutes, arriving at perhaps Mach 5, one should tend to regard SpaceX as at least weapons-capable.

> arriving at perhaps Mach 5

Quite a lot faster than that actually; Mach 20+ on reentry. The way the media talks about "hypersonics" without getting into specifics is very misleading. Hypersonic cruise missiles are a tough nut to crack, but hypersonic reentry vehicles are table stakes for ballistic missiles and spacecraft.

Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#55

Post by jnsaff2 »

openasocket wrote: post #22
robonerd wrote: post #2

> Several news sources have reported that a single TB2 drone can be purchased for a million dollars, but Bayraktar, while not giving a precise figure, told me that it costs more. In any event, single-unit figures are misleading; TB2s are sold as a “platform,” along with portable command stations and communications equipment. In 2019, Ukraine bought a fleet of at least six TB2s for a reported sixty-nine million dollar…

You should take a look at the switchblade. The switchblade 300 model has the equivalent of a 40mm grenade as a warhead, 2.7kg weight, endurance of 10 minutes and a range of around 10km all puts it well in that lower end range. Couldn't find any pricing data, but I imagine more COTS approaches could come out pretty cheap. I'm actually surprised we've got man-portable loitering munitions like the switchblade in use bef…

I've seen a claim that Switchblade 300 costs less than USD 7k. No idea how accurate this is tho.

Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#56

Post by stefan_ »

throw93232 wrote: post #25

This drones are almost useless against modern army with good anti air defense. Here is Indian article with some technical details. https://www.defenceview.in/why-did-the-turkish-tb2-uav-sudde...

That's funny because there is countless footage of TB2 blowing up the very systems that are meant to defeat them so easily. What's the obsession in India with Ukrainian ops? Is it just a government desperately needing to justify it's wholly Russian-built army?

Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#57

Post by stefan_ »

georgeg23 wrote: post #7

There were protests at SpaceX when it was revealed the Turksat 5B satellite would command and control these TB2 drones, extending their range from operator line-of-sight to near global. Elon decided to go ahead with the launch. At some point we need to start calling SpaceX a defense company.

Of course SpaceX is a defense company. Starlink is essentially the next GPS in terms of defense importance.

Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#58

Post by zardo »

more_corn wrote: post #40
xxpor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't work there (except possibly in some minor roles) if you're not a US Person as defined by ITAR for a reason.

ITAR applies because rockets are indistinguishable from ICBMs

Until you get down to the details of what makes a good orbital launch vehicle vs what makes a good ICBM.

Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#59

Post by atlasunshrugged »

01100011 wrote: post #48
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they probably don't, if only because government contracting is an absolutely massive pain and having been on both sides (early at a YC co and have worked in local and federal gov) I know that the gov side considers it an issue that they don't have a close enough relationship to tech startups. This was the whole rationale for launching DIU.mil, Afwerx, sofwerx, NavalX, etc. and championing OTAs which helped sh…

If you think supporting the government means working directly working with the government then, again, you don't know the game. Look at the B-2 bomber. Parts were procured via front companies to conceal the project. Do you think that's the only time where that has occurred? There are many layers to that onion and it is obfuscated for a variety of reasons. The least of which is that I don't think many rock star engine…

I think I may be misunderstanding exactly what you're discussing then. Is the point in your original comment that the DOD uses off the shelf commercial technologies of all sorts for their work and that people who work at startups unknowingly contribute to this? I mean sure, but I can also tell you that the government struggles with buying products commercial off the shelf, this is again a reason you see the push for OTAs and collaborating more closely with the private sector instead of primes.

Also, not sure if calling it "the murder machine" is necessary or useful for a discussion. Many people, myself included, believe that a strong military is necessary for the United States to ensure its own survival and apply its protective cordon around NATO, Korea, Japan, etc. and despite its flaws has probably led to much less overall destruction and death than if the U.S. had a very weak military and could not deter more global conflicts.

Re: The Turkish drone that changed the nature of warfare

#60

Post by robonerd »

wrnr wrote: post #37

Why are these things as effective as they are in the ukrain-russian war? Don't these things show up on radar and therefor vulnerable to conventional anti air defence. Before the start of the war experts where warning that russia could lock down the air space of the whole of europe. These single propeller planes can not be as fast as jet engines and need to be almost on top of their target to drop bombs on them? What…

> Don't these things show up on radar

I'm sure they do, but they're quite small and mostly made out of composites that are fairly transparent to radar. Their radar cross section must be very small compared to a gen 4 jet fighter.

> What is preventing Russia from building these things in the thousands and I don't know patrol the skies of eastern ukrain with it?

Money, corruption, inertia, brain drain...

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