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Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

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Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#101

Post by Clubber »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #22

I worked for a company that embraced remote, distributed work long before COVID. WFH doesn’t automatically lead to outsourcing, but it does move it a lot closer. Once the company dynamic has shifted to all communications and interactions being online, it’s very easy to add someone from a different country as long as the time zones aren’t too far apart and the logistics of employing and paying them aren’t too onerous…

I think any company who could have and wanted to outsource has done it already. The incentives were already there and have been for 20+ years. There might be more blood to squeeze out of that rock, but not much.

If anything, once companies get rid of those massive office complexes and start downsizing office space, there will be less cost incentive to outsource.

Having said that, if you live in a high cost of living area, you may very well be competing with employees who live in a much cheaper state with much less harsh regulations.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#102

Post by giantg2 »

It seems the supply of tech talent is constrained globally. So if a sufficient number of companies try to outsource, they could drive up prices and be no better off. Legal issues can come into play too. Some information must be kept domestically and not be distributed off-shore. On top of all this, my company already does some outsourcing. The quality of the work is usually subpar. They tend to be ok at supporting well documented systems, but not great at building systems. The turnover can lead to potential problems in even supporting systems since it's a revolving at those agencies - as soon as someone good finds a better job (fairly common) they'll leave.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#103

Post by smclaughlin »

100% yes. WFH is meaningfully “flattening the world”.

US labor market preferences have forced employers to offer WFH options. There is only upside to an employer expanding their candidate pool internationally.

Most folks I know are starting with LatAm as there is no meaningful timezone difference to contend with.

This won’t be issue while the global demand for software engineers stays high, bolstered by monopoly businesses paying “whatever it takes”.

But when demand softens: get ready to compete on a level playing field with the best of the best from around the world.

I say that because I think this round of outsourcing is driven by a flight to quality - not cost cutting. Imagine what happens when companies offer US wages to someone in a less wealthy country. They’ll get the top 0.1% of the labor market.

Many companies were dragged kicking & screaming into WFH. But now even the laggards in remote work have developed a culture and processes to make it possible to begin offshoring their operations.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#104

Post by kkfx »

Remote work means potentially a global work market, beyond borders, instead of a local one. So for certain jobs surely the risk is very real: if you are a call center operator and you live in the west you are surely far more expensive than an equally skilled call center operator who happen to be fluent enough in your language from for instance Tajikistan, so IF cross-borders hiring have no carefully written norms for many jobs they will result in a nightmare competition, at least for those who come from/happen to be in the richest part of the world where cost of living and so relevant wages are far higher than elsewhere.

That's however a complex passage we need and we need to handle at a Democratic social level because on one side we can't have some parts of the world hyper developed respect of some others, every time there is a big wide gap between rich and poor, at any level, there are social issues. So the trick is piloting the new globalized society in a slow and controlled transition instead of a sudden "great reset". The former help anybody, the latter just very few against anybody.

Seeing actual populations I think we will get the latter though, having demolished the little culture we have accumulated and spread after French Revolution, with two+ centuries of social movements most of the people act as Lebonian's flocks not as intelligent persons. In that case for those who can't be in the little rich élite or needed by them because of rare high skills the sole hope is remain as aside as possible to try circumnavigating the storm with the little damage possible. Igniting a new Revolution is not for now, time will probably be ready in a relatively near (5-8 years perhaps 10) future but certainly not now.

On contrary this is a time where we can really discuss about a new society where eligible job for WFH will be done from home to ensure better living to many people and similarly better services to everybody and that part seems to be completely ignored by most, preferring talking about disasters or opportunities like "the decision is not from us, it's pointless discussing what can or can't be done"...

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#105

Post by lsaferite »

mrleinad wrote: post #88
webmaven wrote: post #6

In theory, perhaps. But first consider whether the company gains value from workers sharing a time zone, language, cultural context, etc., all of which push against replacing employees with "cheaper" ones from abroad. In many ways the ideal remote first company manages to address and eliminate these constraints (eg. by adopting async communication channels) to truly enable employees to come from and work from anywher…

> consider whether the company gains value from workers sharing a time zone, language, cultural context, etc Hire people from Argentina ;)

I love Argentinian devs, but they have the most holidays of any country I've hired from.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#106

Post by dyingkneepad »

throwawayboise wrote: post #60
posnet wrote: post #56

I find it funny that with the WFH movement people some to have forgotten the lessons learned from the early 2000s outsourcing/offshoring craze. Many companies tried to move their development offices offshore to India, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Ukraine, anywhere with significantly cheaper labour. And the first lesson these companies learned was the second you've trained a person from that area to the point that you are happy…

> the second you've trained a person from that area to the point that you are happy, they will quit Isn't this a significant problem with developers in the USA also? I keep hearing the advice to change jobs every year or two in order to keep building skills and compensation.

Not exactly, because most of the good growth opportunities are in the US, so you have a reason to stay in the same company if you can see that dangling promotion carrot. If you're an offshore employee (even if you work for the, e.g., Elbonian subsidiary of the US company), you know you don't really have much opportunity to grow and get the cool projects or become part of management. You see your US teammates all growing and up, and you know that by staying outside you won't. So after you get experience, you find a way to either be transferred to the US within the company (which is great since L1 visas are cooler) or show your nice shiny new resume to the other employers who may want to sponsor you, now that you have experience working for Path-E-Tech Corporation.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#107

Post by rchaud »

smclaughlin wrote: post #103

100% yes. WFH is meaningfully “flattening the world”. US labor market preferences have forced employers to offer WFH options. There is only upside to an employer expanding their candidate pool internationally. Most folks I know are starting with LatAm as there is no meaningful timezone difference to contend with. This won’t be issue while the global demand for software engineers stays high, bolstered by monopoly busi…

> Imagine what happens when companies offer US wages to someone in a less wealthy country.

There can be a wide disparity in wages inside the US, cost of living being a key differentiating factor.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#108

Post by rchaud »

smclaughlin wrote: post #103

100% yes. WFH is meaningfully “flattening the world”. US labor market preferences have forced employers to offer WFH options. There is only upside to an employer expanding their candidate pool internationally. Most folks I know are starting with LatAm as there is no meaningful timezone difference to contend with. This won’t be issue while the global demand for software engineers stays high, bolstered by monopoly busi…

> Imagine what happens when companies offer US wages to someone in a less wealthy country.

There can be a wide disparity in wages inside the US, cost of living being a key differentiating factor. I imagine the 0.1% of workers of any lower-wage country would already have the skills to migrate to a higher-wage country. So what you'd be paying for is the "best of the rest", which might not be that great.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#110

Post by HWR_14 »

Mc91 wrote: post #35
x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are overly discounting time zone. Someone working remotely, but within 3 time zones, is much easier to collaborate with than someone 9-12 timezones away.

About half the US lives in the eastern time zone - so if the product manager wants to talk to an Indian programmer at 430PM India time, he has to start the meeting at 730AM Eastern time. This is the most convenient time to have the meeting usually. Another 28% of the US is in the central time zone, but that just shifts this meeting to 830AM for the product manager. The working hours don't overlap. On top of various o…

Is 730 a time when most people want to set a meeting? I certainly wouldn't.

And that means the central time zone worker is joining it at 0630 and the west coast worker is joining at 0430

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