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Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

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Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#21

Post by eqNotEq »

webmaven wrote: post #6

In theory, perhaps. But first consider whether the company gains value from workers sharing a time zone, language, cultural context, etc., all of which push against replacing employees with "cheaper" ones from abroad. In many ways the ideal remote first company manages to address and eliminate these constraints (eg. by adopting async communication channels) to truly enable employees to come from and work from anywher…

Just went through the interview gauntlet and timezone was a common topic. As software delivery pace is communication driven being within a couple time zones was explicitly called out by most recruiters and mentioned by the rest as being preferred most of the time. There was exception for working on the road even if it took you out of their preferred TZ band for a few weeks. Going too far away or for too long? Call it vacation instead. Just get shit done, was the sentiment.

So it’s in employers minds too. They’re still hiring local it’s just local is defined as a TZ now not an area code.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#22

Post by PragmaticPulp »

I worked for a company that embraced remote, distributed work long before COVID.

WFH doesn’t automatically lead to outsourcing, but it does move it a lot closer. Once the company dynamic has shifted to all communications and interactions being online, it’s very easy to add someone from a different country as long as the time zones aren’t too far apart and the logistics of employing and paying them aren’t too onerous for HR.

The company I worked for eventually did ramp up foreign hiring and perform layoffs in the US. It was just too to hard to ignore the fact that they could hire 2-3 engineers in foreign countries for the same price as a single engineer in the US in many cases. Or, as they discovered, they could pay 75% of US engineer wages and still be giving someone in a foreign country top-1% compensation for their country. This made for ecstatic, hardworking, loyal foreign employees. It’s hard to ignore situations where you’re paying less and getting more.

It didn’t mean that everyone in the US was laid off, though. Certain talents and specialties were still easier to find here than in foreign countries.

However, I think a lot of people are in denial about how much remote work is setting the stage for a flattening of global engineering compensation. Engineers in lower comp areas will see their salaries rise as they get access to more opportunities. Engineers in higher compensation areas are going to see downward pressure on salaries as they compete on a global stage. The exception will continue to be engineers with the most in-demand skills, who were likely already competing on a global stage.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#23

Post by robocat »

codegeek wrote: post #9

It depends. If you can be replaced at a cheaper cost, why wouldn't a company do it considering they can. The question is: What does it cost to replace someone and is it worth it ? Here is how I look at it: There are 4 types of employees in a company. 1. "Should be partner" Players: You not only do a great job, add tremendous value but you think about the business and team and go out of your way to help improve things…

Your analysis is idealistic and based on the false premise that your value is properly recognised.

Your manager (or a company) will often mismeasure your value. And I can think of plenty of valid reasons you might need to sack even good “partner level” employees. Anecdotally I have seen lots of companies misvalue key profitability employees, and losing them. Or companies sacking valuable key employees.

There are also “D-player” in your scheme: low level negative productivity employees. Often well meaning but overall they will cause costs (even beyond their overhead) and never learn or improve.

And then there are the “player player”s: employees that cost the company large amounts, usually at the higher levels of the company. Often camouflaged as a partner, or A player. Sometimes very productive in one area, with the costs born in another e.g. risks.

Edit: The other problem with your taxonomy, is that it implicitly presumes that people know their value. Too many people undervalue themselves: they are deeply profitable for a business but they are unaware of it. The worse case is when you think you a playing at partner/A level, but actually you are deluding yourself or ignorant of your other costs or ignorant of other company issues, and then you are perplexed when a company values you correctly and lets you go.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#24

Post by codegeek »

robocat wrote: post #23
codegeek wrote: post #9

It depends. If you can be replaced at a cheaper cost, why wouldn't a company do it considering they can. The question is: What does it cost to replace someone and is it worth it ? Here is how I look at it: There are 4 types of employees in a company. 1. "Should be partner" Players: You not only do a great job, add tremendous value but you think about the business and team and go out of your way to help improve things…

Your analysis is idealistic and based on the false premise that your value is properly recognised. Your manager (or a company) will often mismeasure your value. And I can think of plenty of valid reasons you might need to sack even good “partner level” employees. Anecdotally I have seen lots of companies misvalue key profitability employees, and losing them. Or companies sacking valuable key employees. There are also…

I am not suggesting that value is always recognized. Plenty of people start as A player and become B player etc. It is possible if you don't get taken care of by the team/company. However, regardless of whether you are recognized or not, you CAN be replaced once your cost doesn't justify your output and that is a fact. Nothing idealistic about it. Whether that analysis by the company is correct or not, doesn't matter for the purpose of this discussion.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#27

Post by x3n0ph3n3 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #22

I worked for a company that embraced remote, distributed work long before COVID. WFH doesn’t automatically lead to outsourcing, but it does move it a lot closer. Once the company dynamic has shifted to all communications and interactions being online, it’s very easy to add someone from a different country as long as the time zones aren’t too far apart and the logistics of employing and paying them aren’t too onerous…

I think you are overly discounting time zone. Someone working remotely, but within 3 time zones, is much easier to collaborate with than someone 9-12 timezones away.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#28

Post by silisili »

No better or worse than before, IMO. It's a pendulum that keeps swinging back and forth. Cost cutting leads to outsourcing, which leads to reduced quality and or output, which leads to people coming in to grow and revamp, which comes back to hiring local, rinse and repeat.

I'm mostly convinced great and established software engineers around the world already do well for themselves. If you're cheaping out on salaries, here or abroad, you're likely not getting anything good.

I'd much, much, much rather have one proficient, in my timezone developer at 200k than 4 offshored developers at 50k.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#29

Post by Mc91 »

silisili wrote: post #28

No better or worse than before, IMO. It's a pendulum that keeps swinging back and forth. Cost cutting leads to outsourcing, which leads to reduced quality and or output, which leads to people coming in to grow and revamp, which comes back to hiring local, rinse and repeat. I'm mostly convinced great and established software engineers around the world already do well for themselves. If you're cheaping out on salaries,…

> I'd much, much, much rather have one proficient, in my timezone developer at 200k than 4 offshored developers at 50k.

This idea meshes with the lessons Fred Brooks learned as a PM of the System 360 project in the early 1960s.

Re: Ask HN: WFH – will I be outsourced?

#30

Post by lmc »

Outsourcing is a gamble - the effects of cultural and language differences have often been underestimated. For every company that wants to try it, there will be some some that have tried it and been stung, and want to hire local again. Think of it like any other business risk e.g. company being acquired, financial issues etc. - try and make sure your skillset is applicable to other potential future orgs
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