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Go Ahead, Sell My Data

kevinjcurtin.com

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Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#31

Post by kcurtin »

davidw wrote: post #16
kcurtin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with being both? To me it seems like a mutually beneficial relationship. I am getting tremendous value from using their site to interact with and stay connected with friends. They are using my data to make money by serving me unobtrusive ads that don't really negatively impact my user experience. I do think that being more upfront and more transparent would be a good thing, there are alot of misconcepti…

Being both what? I wrote that I agreed with the point of the article. My point was that most people, who are only casual users, are going to take a while to slowly make their way down this path: 1) Oh, what a cool service! For free! 2) Huh, they're showing me ads for stuff I'm interested in... what's up with that. Oh! They're selling "me" to these companies! OMG! Privacy!!! 3) Ah... well if I know exactly what they a…

*Both the product and the user. But I do agree that there is almost always an initial negative reaction when people figure out that their data is being sold.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#32

Post by pingswept »

kcurtin wrote: post #11
davidw wrote: post #8

I agree, but most people probably haven't thought it through, or if they have considered it, they're stuck on the revelation that they are the product, not the customer. Perhaps some of these companies should be more up front about 'the deal' to their users, and what its boundaries are.

What is wrong with being both? To me it seems like a mutually beneficial relationship. I am getting tremendous value from using their site to interact with and stay connected with friends. They are using my data to make money by serving me unobtrusive ads that don't really negatively impact my user experience. I do think that being more upfront and more transparent would be a good thing, there are alot of misconcepti…

If Facebook were simply showing me ads for stuff I mentioned, or something like that, I would have no objection. "Hmm, this guy keeps posting about hats. He must like hats. Let's show him some ads for hats!" No problem. That's basically what I thought would happen when I signed up.

I did not expect that when I visited cnn.com, after having logged into Facebook a week earlier, Facebook would log which articles I read. There was no reason for me to think that clicking "remember me" when I logged into Facebook also implied "and also remember my browsing history on all of your partner sites."

That's the behavior that pisses me off, not the targeted ads that you mentioned.

(I assume it's obvious why logging a subset of my browsing history without my consent pisses me off, but let me know if that seems odd and I'll explain more.)

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#33

Post by rwolf »

gyardley wrote: post #25
kcurtin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook using the information we have made available on their network ("intrusive data collection") doesn't really have a negative impact on us as users. At least not in any tangible way.

Absolutely. A class-action lawsuit against a mobile analytics company I own a chunk of was thrown out of court recently for exactly that - failure by the plaintiffs to establish actual injury or harm. If there's no injury, there's no standing, and therefore there's no case.

I refer you to the Beacon advertising adventure. Where Facebook was "just using the data we make available on their network," and users fought back and won.

You last sentence starts with "If there's no injury," which seems to be the topic of discussion here.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#34

Post by gnaffle »

I guess the problem isn't targeted advertising per se. It's that you don't know what your personal information will be used for in the future. Maybe it will give you better, more targeted advertising. Maybe it will be used to deny you an insurance policy or be sold to a recruiting firm that will reject your job application. I guess Facebooks terms don't allow that, but those terms can change at any time.

Maybe not next year, but what about 30-40 years from now? Facebook or Google might not even exist then, but you can be pretty sure that your data will exist, along with your social graph. That's a tangible asset that can be sold, no matter what happens to these companies. Or seized by some government, for that matter.

Is this just being paranoid and obsessed with privacy? Lets hope so.

A german friend put it this way: Most jews in pre-nazi Germany didn't mind having their religious affiliation listed in their passport. Many were indeed proud to be jews.

Would anyone of them have been able to imagine what this information would be used for just a few years down the line? Wouldn't anyone worrying about this collection of data have been laughed at and called paranoid?

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#35

Post by sixtofour »

Wilya wrote: post #21

This is addressing the wrong problem, at least in my view. I don't really care about what Facebook does with the data I consciously give them. And ads are just an side-effect. My main problem is that they actively try to get their hands on data I don't want to give them. Like, my constantly actualized GPS coordinates, or my browsing history. And that they store it. And process it. And store me into some kind of box.…

"The day Facebook, or Google, or anyone actually decides to do something evil, it will look ugly. Will they ? Don't know. Don't want to find out."

Yes, they will. And when they do, it won't be evil, it'll just be business. Which is evil.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#36

Post by rwolf »

scrollbar wrote: post #15
rwolf wrote: post #10

It's not clear to me that ad-supported == targeted ad-supported. The claim that there is no alternative is false--the alternative is less effective (and therefore less lucrative) ads. If you ask a HN-reader to choose either 1) less intrusive data collection or 2) more profits to the website, I think it's clear why the user prefers door #1.

The better way to frame the choice is 1) less intrusive data collection or 2) ads relevant to what you might actually be interested in. Some people don't like simple remarketing, but I do. It's not so bad that Bonobos reminds me to buy pants from them every once and awhile... I like their pants ;) And I'm not sure of the brand effect display ads have had on me but I know I'd rather see something relevant to business,…

You happen to like when ads are targeted at you.

Do you think everyone likes these ads, and the ones who are complaining are just whining without really thinking about what great pants they could be buying?

Do you think some other people may not like these ads? Is it odd that those people would try to pressure companies into not showing these ads?

Do you think one side of the other is in the majority here? Can either side speak "for" the masses, who don't talk about/understand ads one way or the other?

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#37

Post by kokey »

pothibo wrote: post #26

Damn right, I don't understand why people are going all up in arms for privacy on the Internet, this is _Internet_, you know, the place where everything is public. If you want to show your life on the Internet, you have to expect some people taking interest in it, whatever the intention. What I can't understand is how we are all upset about Facebook, Google, Apple, Microsoft and our privacy when we have NEVER given a…

I actually find it a bit funny when people put up personal data for the sake of sharing it with others over a public network, then go on complaining about privacy.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#38

Post by [deleted] »

Wilya wrote: post #21

This is addressing the wrong problem, at least in my view. I don't really care about what Facebook does with the data I consciously give them. And ads are just an side-effect. My main problem is that they actively try to get their hands on data I don't want to give them. Like, my constantly actualized GPS coordinates, or my browsing history. And that they store it. And process it. And store me into some kind of box.…

[deleted]

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#39

Post by gghootch »

joezydeco wrote: post #12
gghootch wrote: post #2

A lot of my peers would say this is just one line of code away from a society in which our every single action or movement is influenced by hyper personalized advertisements. They fear losing control of their own lives. I say bring it on. I look forward to the day when an algorithm tells me my taste buds prefer extra spicy beef panda express, order now and have it air delivered to you in ten minutes

I'm curious what "losing control" means here. Do you mean they don't feel they have the willpower to resist these hyper-personalized ads? Or do they feel the ads will become so obnoxious and attention-getting (because of the personal nature) that it will interfere with their daily thought patterns?

"they don't feel they have the willpower to resist these hyper-personalized ads"

Although it's not necessarily a discussion of their own willpower but rather whether the masses will lose portions of the power to think for themselves. Not always the same or hyperspecific portions, but we're slowly giving away more and more of our decisions to advertisements.

/Disclaimer: not sure whether I paraphrased this correctly./

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#40

Post by kcurtin »

gnaffle wrote: post #34

I guess the problem isn't targeted advertising per se. It's that you don't know what your personal information will be used for in the future. Maybe it will give you better, more targeted advertising. Maybe it will be used to deny you an insurance policy or be sold to a recruiting firm that will reject your job application. I guess Facebooks terms don't allow that, but those terms can change at any time. Maybe not ne…

I do understand concerns over what happens to your data moving forward (changing laws, organizational/management changes etc.). But again, I can't think of any of the information on a social networking site being all that damning. The information that I share on say Facebook or Google+ (at least for me) never really consists of ultra-private information.

And I think your example is a bit extreme.

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