24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#171

Post by chalst » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:02 AM UTC

count wrote: post #40

AlexMuir wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to look beyond the law to what its purpose is - to prevent companies from exploiting your personal information, and to force them to tell you what data they hold. Facebook are exploiting your browser history, without telling you. And are refusing to even own up to it. I don't believe that 99% of Facebook users would tick a box that said 'Please record every webpage I visit and store it for your own future us…

But if you, as a customer of those websites, agree to them knowing you are there, and they chose to share that with others, what right does the government have to prevent that? Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Credit bureaus are significantly different - you have literally no choice in that manner; Facebook isn't providing data to be used in that type of decision though. If so…

No, such anonymous data is not restricted by the laws Max Schrem is invoking. The scope of the European Data Protection Directive is limited to personal data, and it explicitly says "the principles of protection shall not apply to data rendered anonymous in such a way that the data subject is no longer identifiable."

(Section 26) http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:...

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#172

Post by tcarnell » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:05 AM UTC

Regarding deleted data: there are clearly two concepts of 'deleted' a). deleted in terms of the application/user interface (ie, it is no longer visible) and b). deleted in terms of physical removal from all permenant storage. Clicking on a button labelled "delete" does not necesarily imply one or the other.

For example, if I "delete" an email in google it is not deleted, it goes to my 'trash/bin' folder - is this also a breach of the law? and are we sure which definition the "Delete Forever" button is using?

...I suppose its up to the terms and conditions to define this.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#173

Post by hasslblad » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:13 AM UTC

coldarchon wrote: post #55

count wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you, as a customer of those websites, agree to them knowing you are there, and they chose to share that with others, what right does the government have to prevent that? Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Credit bureaus are significantly different - you have literally no choice in that manner; Facebook isn't providing data to be used in that type of decision though. If so…

you don't get it, right? You already ARE a customer even BEFORE you agree to something which they don't abide. They use YOU even if you don't like it ..

I think this comic sums it up nicely -

http://www.ethannonsequitur.com/facebook-you-customer-produc...

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#174

Post by bmacauley » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:16 AM UTC

pyre wrote: post #97

chc wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly unclear about this: Does Facebook actually have any operations in the EU, or does it merely not ban Europeans from accessing its servers in America?

It has a headquarters in Ireland. Apparently Ireland is a popular tax haven. Ireland is also part of the EU... Oops!

Ireland isn't the tax haven, although it has a very low corporate tax rate of 12.5 %. They are in Ireland to channel cash to tax havens, such as Bermuda and the Cayman Islands, using the 'double Irish' and 'Dutch sandwich' tax avoidance techniques

Google's Tax Tricks: 'Double Irish' And 'Dutch Sandwich' http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/10/21/130727655/google-s...

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#175

Post by vijayr » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:24 AM UTC

beforebeta wrote: post #9

Permit wrote: post #2

Honest question: Why is Facebook governed, at least in part, by European law? The reason I ask is that the United States has a lot of trouble enforcing its copyright laws abroad (which is good in my opinion), but Facebook and Google seem to bend to European laws regarding privacy and transparency.

The linked video (in german) explains this. Apparently Facebook has a registered HQ in Ireland (presumably - as someone mentioned in another thread - for tax purposes). Since it is a registered business in Ireland, it is subject to all Irish and many applicable European laws (one of which is data privacy). The 24-year-old Individual feels it's against his data privacy rights that Facebook retains deleted messages. Pe…

Could that just be a referential integrity constraint - since most messages require 2 or more parties.

Can't they just update the content of the message (on both sides) as "deleted", but keep the record itself? It would annoy the other party though.

This would be really annoying, when it comes to chat logs.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#176

Post by StrawberryFrog » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 11:13 AM UTC

count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

Maybe it's my unenlightened European perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal?

Facebook chose to do business in Europe, Facebook chose to be governed by European law.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#177

Post by DanBC » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 11:13 AM UTC

Travisism wrote: post #62

sek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit, it is not "completely voluntary". When everyone is using a communication service and there is no alternative. They claim to have a billion users. Short it is a monopoly, they have a lot of power and when you start to abuse it, like forcing users to accept your unfair terms of service, the government comes into play. I never heard that Google doesn't remove stuff when you remove them inside your service. The…

It is 100% completely voluntary. Nobody is forcing you to use Facebook. It is not even remotely close to the only communication service. I don't personally use Facebook and have no problem leading an active social and business life. Sure, a large portion of my friends use Facebook, but they also make phone calls, send text messages, email (through multiple different services), LinkedIn, Flickr, etc etc etc. So how do…

>Nobody is forcing you to use Facebook.

True, but that doesn't help the people who don't use Facebook but who still have data about them collected.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#178

Post by alttag » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 12:05 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #160

count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

Although I agree with the basic principle that if you don't like what Facebook does, the best course of action is to not use Facebook, the argument that, in essence, a private company is free to do whatever it wants is absurd. What Facebook is doing is illegal in the EU (or at least, its legality is in dispute). Whether or not you agree with those regulations or think they are absurd is another matter entirely, and q…

Part of the complaint is that even those who don't use Facebook or opt in to its terms (like me) are still publicly tagged in photos (without my consent) and tracked across the internet (through "like" buttons).

So while I agree, simply avoiding Facebook doesn't solve the problem.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#179

Post by ddw » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 12:27 PM UTC

hessenwolf wrote: post #149

Confusion wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Because people are ignorant/lazy/desperate and need to be protected against themselves. That's one of the things we want our governments to do: to protect us when we overlook something in the complex reality of our daily lives, without caring for why we overlooked it. You can't sell yourself into slavery, you can't sell an organ and you can't s…

busy/uninformed/confused

Yeah, that's more like it. Not everyone has time to comb through links on HN.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#180

Post by jritch » Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 12:27 PM UTC

I think there’s a few points here and although some replies have very valid points others completely stray from the issues that "Europe vs facebook" is making.

1. Facebook has bases, and operates, in Europe. Thus they MUST abide by our data laws. This means that, under our European laws they MUST supply ALL information they have on people. Currently this is not being done and as such they are breaking the law by not providing ALL information they hold on people. If they want to have HQ's in Europe and want Europeans to use their service they must abide by our laws, this is regardless if we as a user decide to sign up or not. These laws cannot at anytime be waived REGARDLESS if it is indeed us as Europeans deciding to use their service.

2. Quite simply, if they offer the option of "deleting" posts/likes/mails, then they should do just that, delete it. Anything other than this and they are quite blatantly misleading users.

3. They SHOULD NOT be gathering information on ANYONE who does not use their service. This is not legal and should not be allowed to happen. The old saying "knowledge is power" comes to mind, but these "big corporations" should not be able to gather data on people who have no connection what-so-ever to their company/services. Britain recently has been rocked by such scandals as phone hack etc aswell as the big argument about Google cars collecting data from wireless networks that they were not authorised to do so from. Is facebook gather information on people who have no connection to them any different from hacking someone’s phone and listening to their messages? Or any different from a Google car passing your home and gathering information for your wireless network? My opinion is that it isnt any different. New of the world have had to pay out massive amount of compensation to the people who could prove that their phones were hacked. It is a breach of privacy and more importantly, THE LAW. Google also had to agree to delete all information gathered by its Google cars as this was deemed to be illegally collected.

Facebook should be made to adhere to our laws if they wish to be present in our countries. Thus they should be made to supply ALL information held on people who make subject access requests, they should delete all e mails/post/likes that have been deleted by the original (or any recipicants) and should also delete ALL information they have gained about people who no longer/have never used their service.

I joined facebook when it first came out as would say i was pretty young and naive, I didnt read all the agreements etc and certainly didn’t know what I was signing myself up for (alot of which has not came out until recently). If facebook want to use the argument that everyone who signs up agree to their t&c then they should respect the fact that only peoples over the age of 18 should be allowed to join in Europe. (this is currently not the case with children as young as 8 and their pet dogs having profiles)....

Facebook cant have it all their own way and must respect the laws of the land, PERIOD.