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24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

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Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#141

Post by dredmorbius »

coldarchon wrote: post #55
count wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you, as a customer of those websites, agree to them knowing you are there, and they chose to share that with others, what right does the government have to prevent that? Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Credit bureaus are significantly different - you have literally no choice in that manner; Facebook isn't providing data to be used in that type of decision though. If so…

you don't get it, right? You already ARE a customer even BEFORE you agree to something which they don't abide. They use YOU even if you don't like it ..

No, you're not the customer.

You're the product.

What's particularly entertaining is how many people get annoyed at being reminded of this fact.

Soylent green is people.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#142

Post by dredmorbius »

count wrote: post #44
fhars wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if they don't abide by the laws, their purposes are not completely legal. Just like you cannot completely voluntarily sell yourself into slavery under US law, there are certain inalienable rights that cannot be given up under european law, and control over your personal data is one of them. That is the point of it.

Semantics here - if they aren't abiding, you are right, it is illegal. But I'm asking more along the lines of 'why' is that illegal. Is that data privacy an inalienable, non-contract-surrendable right? That seems ridiculously draconian.

Go read some WWII history.

Particularly those parts in which certain large information business organizations were subject to hostile takeovers, rendering prior understandings of data acquisition and use obsolete.

I'm thinking in particular of, say, the German Bundesrepublic and Vichy France. Though you might argue that the former was sanctioned by democratic processes, I suspect even you would be hard pressed to say the same of the latter.

If nothing else, it'll keep you off HN for a few hours, which would be a net benefit for the rest of us. With a low p-value, you might actually accumulate a few drams of wisdom.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#143

Post by mnutt »

pyre wrote: post #94
acavailhez wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To respond to the last sentence : Yes, things like that can be illegal. As an example, in France it is forbidden to count the number of people who get in & out of a subway at a given station. I guess it's really a strong difference of culture between Europe and America : laws are made in Europe to make sure that people should not have to make the effort of guessing if a company will mess with their data or not. The c…

> As an example, in France it is forbidden to count the > number of people who get in & out of a subway at a given > station. That seems lame. That number is highly anonymous. How does a statement like "between 8am and 9am 250 people boarded the subway, and 130 people exited the subway" affect a person's privacy?

In NYC, the MTA has opened up an API to their turnstile data:

http://www.mta.info/developers/turnstile.html

They even put ads for their data API in the subway.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#144

Post by ordinary »

alexhawket wrote: post #132
nihilocrat wrote: post #67

There is a cool German word for companies like Facebook or Google, which collect mounds of information about their users: Datenkrake : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datenkrake

Is that the modern reference to octopus or the legendary reference to the mythic kraken sea creature?

The German word for octopus is indeed "Kraken", and looking at the pictures in the article linked by the GP, I'd bet on the former, rather than the latter.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#145

Post by macco »

coldarchon wrote: post #55
count wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you, as a customer of those websites, agree to them knowing you are there, and they chose to share that with others, what right does the government have to prevent that? Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Credit bureaus are significantly different - you have literally no choice in that manner; Facebook isn't providing data to be used in that type of decision though. If so…

you don't get it, right? You already ARE a customer even BEFORE you agree to something which they don't abide. They use YOU even if you don't like it ..

You are not a customer to facebook. You are their kettle! Advertisers are their customers. Never forget that - you don't pay them anything.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#146

Post by Derbasti »

anigbrowl wrote: post #63
count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

Because EU citizens have a legal right to privacy; in the EU, your personal data belongs to you, and this ownership cannot simply be waived contractually. From the EU charter of fundamental rights, which has constitutional force: Protection of personal data 1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her. 2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis…

This might be a great way to brush up you CV after university (for law students).

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#147

Post by Derbasti »

vacri wrote: post #106
vacri wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EULAs are not intended to be properly read. Every $BIGNAME has a lengthy EULA, to the point where it's just a click-through. No reasonable person can be expected to read every tech EULA, let alone understand all its provisions. Even then, whenever EULAs get updated, rare is the company that highlights the change - most expect you to reread and figure out the difference for yourself. You also have no choice but to agr…

example: my favourite EULA to date was one in a Windows OS installer, which weighed in at 3000 words... which you could only read in a box four lines high. Still, it doesn't beat the 'voluntary' license where you can't read the license until you unseal the box, but unsealing the box indicates you agree with the license.

As far as I know, those unwrapping-consent EULAs are not legal (at least in Europe).

And I seem to remember that some court in some county decided that EULAs in general are not legally binding (to consumers at least) any more since no one can be reasonably expected to read them.

What a strange world we live in.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#148

Post by vetler »

I remember learning about the law that organizations have to provide all information stored about individuals upon request when I was a kid in school.

We even sent out letters requesting information as an assignment. I sent to a bank, I think. Not very interesting back then, but it would certainly be a lot more interesting now!

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#149

Post by hessenwolf »

Confusion wrote: post #139
count wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you, as a customer of those websites, agree to them knowing you are there, and they chose to share that with others, what right does the government have to prevent that? Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Credit bureaus are significantly different - you have literally no choice in that manner; Facebook isn't providing data to be used in that type of decision though. If so…

Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Because people are ignorant/lazy/desperate and need to be protected against themselves. That's one of the things we want our governments to do: to protect us when we overlook something in the complex reality of our daily lives, without caring for why we overlooked it. You can't sell yourself into slavery, you can't sell an organ and you can't s…

busy/uninformed/confused

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#150

Post by rmc »

pyre wrote: post #97
chc wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly unclear about this: Does Facebook actually have any operations in the EU, or does it merely not ban Europeans from accessing its servers in America?

It has a headquarters in Ireland. Apparently Ireland is a popular tax haven. Ireland is also part of the EU... Oops!

Ireland also has a lot of high tech companies. If you watch the video you'll see they have several floors of staff, not just a brass plate. It's possible Facebook et al. are in Ireland for more than the tax breaks.
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