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Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

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Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can go looking at all the laws states have tried to pass over the years that didn't protect the life of the mother or would have forced her to give birth to her rapist's child. You can also look at all the laws which would have made doctors risk their freedom and security for performing a medical procedure that they felt was needed. You could do that, but I recommend saving some time and just looking at the state…

You didn't answer the question that was posed to you in regards to your original statement.

He asked which states "don't care how many women are forced to give birth to their rapists children or die due to medical problems surrounding their pregnancy."

In return I not only told him how to identify other, but gave him a list of six which have pressured providers to close to the point where currently only one remains in the entire state. States who care about how many women can't get access to a life saving abortion don't try to make it impossible for women to get the care they need.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#182
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that situation should not exist. if the father wants a child that the mother does not then it was rape and the father should not get the child either.

That makes no sense at all. People can have consensual sex without wanting a child and they can change their mind about wanting a child after having consensual sex. I'm curious if you apply the same argument when the mother wants a child and the father does not. What should happen to the child in that situation? The abortion debate should not have anything to do with whether a child will be born or not. The right to…

if you made the decision to create a new life then you have to follow through with the consequences.

if that's not what you wanted, you should have used protection.

the problem with the abortion debate is that both sides are in extreme corners and neither side is willing to approach the other.

the problem is also, trying to find a legal definition for the consensus.

what about a woman that believes to be raped, but can't prove it? should she be allowed to abort? i believe yes.

but we can only do that if we make abortion legal and the decision an entirely moral one. you can't legislate morality. with any legislation there will be corner cases with an unjust outcome.

all we can do is create better conditions for pregnant women so that they may be more comfortable carrying a baby that they otherwise would not want.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even that line is ambiguous. Some babies born at 22 weeks may survive, and many may not. With additional medical advances that timetable might move back to essentially 0 weeks. Without formula, babies would still absolutely need someone's nutrients to survive until 6 months. The point is, while the law needs it to be binary, I don't think it's the same on moral grounds. And I've heard your last point repeated plenty,…

> Even that line is ambiguous. Some babies born at 22 weeks may survive, and many may not. No need to try and force a binary where it can/should be avoided. The idea would be that if you seek an abortion the doctor will determine if the fetus can be removed alive instead. If it can, you can sign it over to the state, have it removed, and be on your way. The doctors will do their best to keep it alive, but certainly s…

Even being born a few weeks early leads to significantly worse outcomes - the birthing ward at the hospital where my daughter was born had posters up warning of it. I thought that was weird because...you know, you're already there, but apparently it used to be fairly common for doctors to schedule induced labor earlier than they should have and for people to try to deliver earlier as it'd be easier on them.

When you get down to 26 weeks things get dire:

>In one study of 241 children born before 26 weeks' gestation the following was found:

22% severe disability (eg cerebral palsy + not walking, low cognitive scores, blindness, profound deafness) 24% moderate disability (eg cerebral palsy + walking, IQ/cognitive scores in the special needs range, lesser degree of visual or hearing impairment) 34% mild disability (defined as low IQ/cognitive score, squint, requiring glasses) 20% no problems.

https://www.tommys.org/pregnancy-information/premature-birth...

We already have a solution for people that don't want to keep their babies past pregnancy. Let's not ruin the baby's lives on top of it.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always thought it was odd that people feel like it’s a binary condition. It’s fine if the fetus is undelivered, or if it can’t live outside the womb, or ___. I’m pro-choice, but my opinion is that “choice” is always at least a little evil (barring medical or other specific reasons). The longer it goes on, the more evil it gets. To that end I think it’s insane that some states are pushing to have abortion be lega…

>To that end I think it’s insane that some states are pushing to have abortion be legal up until delivery. That’s 99.99% straight up killing a baby. which states are those and you have links to discussion of bills or laws?

Some states already have it - according to https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/a-guide-to-... the following states have it in their constitutions that abortion is protected throughout pregnancy:

Colorado DC New Jersey Oregon Vermont

California recently had a bill put forward that potentially may have legalized killing babies even shortly after birth. Whether that was by accident or design is anyone's guess, and it was changed after there was an uproar.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-california-law/fac...

Virginia also had some stuff come under scrutiny:

>Gilbert, posing a hypothetical and rare scenario, asked whether a woman that “is about to give birth” and “dilating” could request an abortion and be certified by a physician “if he indicated it would impair the mental health of a woman.” After hesitation, Tran responded her bill “would allow that.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-virginia-gov-ab...

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#185

Can someone explain in non-legal way why the court believes an individual has right to decide whether they can wear a mask or not but not whether they can have a medical procedure or not? What's the main difference between these two?

They ruled that the government doesn't have the right to force people to wear masks. The parallel would be deciding that the government doesn't have the right to force people to get abortions - which, if it ever came to that, I'm pretty sure the court would in fact rule.

>> the court believes an individual has right to decide whether they can wear a mask

> They ruled that the government doesn't have the right to force people to wear masks.

Both of these statements are super false.

The court ruled that one particular piece of legislation does not give the executive branch the authority to force certain employers to have and enforce a rule that their employees, while in the workplace, must be masked or vaccinated.

There is NO "individual right to not mask" involved here. It's a ruling about the authority of the executive branch given the contents of a law passed by the legislature. That's all.

In particular,

1. The businesses effected by the ruling are of course free to none-the-less mandate masking without a federal mandate. I.e., there is no right for individuals not to mask.

2. If Congress were to pass a new law explicitly giving OSHA authority to mandate masks in workplaces, the court's reasoning in Nat'l Federation of Businesses v. DoL would be wholly irrelevant to that new piece of legislation.

3. Mask mandates in non-OSHA contexts -- eg federal buildings -- are not effected by either scotus ruling.

4. Biden v Missouri, decided by the same court at the same time, left vaccine mandates in place for healthcare facilities.

Neither of the SCOTUS decisions have anything to do with masking as an individual right, and they certainly don't rule that "government doesn't have the right to force people to wear masks". All they say is that one particular law, as written, doesn't give the Executive the authority to mandate that employers mandate masks/vaccines in certain workplaces.

If the court had found a reading of the constitution that enshrined a right not to mask that somehow didn't create a penumbra within which many other individual rights (including abortion) lived, that would be... a rather incredible exercise in bullshitting. But that's not what happened.

Regardless, other comments here are accurate: at least on certain issues the supreme court is hopelessly politicized.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#187

Quoted post unavailable.

Yikes. Preventing abortions brings unwanted children into the world and pushes abortion underground, where they’ll just be less safe abortions. Do you know how unwanted children are treated? I volunteer as a guardian ad litem for children who need a court appointed advocate, and I support abortion fully having seen the alternative suffering, not to mention anti abortion proponents supporting life right up until birth…

No post body was provided.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The court has rapidly given itself over to partisanship in the last few years. That framework lends understanding to the seeming contradiction in their decisions.

Sure that may be the case but there is still some argument applied to both decisions. What's the main difference between one vs. the other that makes decision to get a medical procedure not legal but decision to not wear a mask legal?

Your understanding of the mask cases is incorrect.

There is no "right not to mask". A right not to mask would mean that such a law would not be enforceable. But the court found no such right. It simply found that the executive was interpreting a statute incorrectly.

Specifically, the Biden administration believed that a piece of legislation gave them the authority to mandate masks in certain workplaces. The court disagreed except for in the case of medical facilities. In particular, the court said nothing about what would happen if, hypothetically, Congress were to pass a law clarifying that OSHA does indeed have the authority to mandate masking.

The SCOTUS decisions regarding masking/vaccines were not cases of constitutional law or individual rights. Rather, SCOTUS was simply ruling on the meaning of a statute passed by the legislature and enforced by the executive. Individual constitutional rights were not in play.

By contrast, Roe v Wade establishes a constitutional right to abortion. What this means is that even if Congress or a state passed a law outlawing abortion, that law would not be enforceable unless SCOTUS overturned Roe.

I don't think there is a single justice on the court who believes that the constitution provides a right not to mask. The court is hopelessly political, and on hot-button issues it's best to think about the court reasoning backward from decisions rather than forward for law, but "a constitutional right not to mask" is not how the conservative justices currently on the court would ever go about justifying striking down a mask policy.

Comparing the mask/vaccine decisions to the Roe decision doesn't make much sense.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#189
post #172
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it didn't spell out religious ideology, just as people claim the civil war wasn't about slavery. If you can cloak your argument in neutral language, it's easier to dismiss the views of the opposition and not be branded a zealot.

So where should the line be drawn? Should abortions at 39 weeks be legal? If not, what restrictions should be placed on them?

The line drawn is the government should not be involved in medical decisions between doctor and patient. Women don't endure pregnancy for almost 9 months and then decide to have an abortion a week short of birth on a whim. Late stage abortions are due to medical problems with the fetus or the health of the mother. If people are personally against abortion, don't have one, but don't force your views on others when you have no idea of the personal and painful decisions that others have to make.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#190

As has been said several times: you can't prevent abortions from happening by outlawing them, you only make those that occur less safe

Many activists I know are moving to the idea that if we can't have safe, legal abortions then we will settle for safe.
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