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Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

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Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#111

Post by cato_the_elder »

mystique wrote: post #103
drewbug01 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The court has rapidly given itself over to partisanship in the last few years. That framework lends understanding to the seeming contradiction in their decisions.

Sure that may be the case but there is still some argument applied to both decisions. What's the main difference between one vs. the other that makes decision to get a medical procedure not legal but decision to not wear a mask legal?

Well, not everyone sees abortion as merely a medical procedure. The rights of the fetus and the father are the major concerns. How to balance these is, of course, controversial.

Similar issues exist about masks too. (e.g. concerns of immunocompromised people)

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#112

Post by Auracle »

threatofrain wrote: post #28
xyzzy4747 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Quoted post unavailable.

The United State’s abortion laws are far more lax than most first world countries. Many don’t even have at-will abortions, and most are limited to something like 12 weeks - not almost double that.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#113

Post by autoexec »

randomtwiddler wrote: post #104
autoexec wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "just" but the fact is that no matter where in the country you are, being an American citizen should guarantee a person certain rights, such as access to critical medical care, or not being forced to give birth to your rapist's child. Several states have already demonstrated that they don't want their population to have those rights and even before this women's lives were endangered by their attempts to close…

You can't have a right that is also a service. Services are based on voluntary exchange.

You can have a right to service. Even if it's just being able to sit a lunch counter, or attend a school.

You can also have a right to seek or provide medical care. Those rights are about to be taken from many of us.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#114

Post by Auracle »

margalabargala wrote: post #108
TrispusAttucks wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

The issue is in the definition of "unborn human". Many people don't believe that something without a brain is considered to be a living human, in the same sense that people who are braindead but with a beating heart are considered dead. The question is, at what point in the unfertilized egg -> fertilized egg -> clump of cells -> developing fetus -> viable infant spectrum does the being take on "humanity"? Personally…

I’ve always thought it was odd that people feel like it’s a binary condition. It’s fine if the fetus is undelivered, or if it can’t live outside the womb, or ___.

I’m pro-choice, but my opinion is that “choice” is always at least a little evil (barring medical or other specific reasons). The longer it goes on, the more evil it gets. To that end I think it’s insane that some states are pushing to have abortion be legal up until delivery. That’s 99.99% straight up killing a baby.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#115

Post by autoexec »

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #100
autoexec wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "just" but the fact is that no matter where in the country you are, being an American citizen should guarantee a person certain rights, such as access to critical medical care, or not being forced to give birth to your rapist's child. Several states have already demonstrated that they don't want their population to have those rights and even before this women's lives were endangered by their attempts to close…

Fortunately our nation is founded on a constitution and rule of law so that what "should" and "shouldn't" can be codified appropriately by the people.

> so that what "should" and "shouldn't" can be codified appropriately by the people.

Sadly that's been repeatedly shown to be false. What we actually have is a system where the average person has zero influence on policy and a very small number of very wealthy people dictate what "should" and "shouldn't" be. The vast majority of Americans support the right to an abortion and yet here we have a small number of people taking that right from them.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#116

Post by Auracle »

slenk wrote: post #110
randomtwiddler wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have a right that is also a service. Services are based on voluntary exchange.

You should have the right to do what you want with your body. Yes vaccines too. And I am vaccinated

Right, but the argument from many is that it isn’t just your body.

And if I should have the right to do what I want with my body, why aren’t all drugs legalized? Why can’t I legally kill myself? You’re probably saying “that should be legal!” But the Supreme Court has never made that leap, even though they did in the case of abortion.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#117

Post by dragonwriter »

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #100
autoexec wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "just" but the fact is that no matter where in the country you are, being an American citizen should guarantee a person certain rights, such as access to critical medical care, or not being forced to give birth to your rapist's child. Several states have already demonstrated that they don't want their population to have those rights and even before this women's lives were endangered by their attempts to close…

Fortunately our nation is founded on a constitution and rule of law so that what "should" and "shouldn't" can be codified appropriately by the people.

> Fortunately our nation is founded on a constitution and rule of law so that what "should" and "shouldn't" can be codified appropriately by the people.

The governing and electoral structure is very much engineered to prevent “the people” from having an effective voice is codifying should and shouldn't, despite the occasional mouthing of platitudes relating to popular sovereignty and democratic rule by elites.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#118

Post by autoexec »

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #97
autoexec wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many states have already decided they don't care how many women are forced to give birth to their rapists children or die due to medical problems surrounding their pregnancy. Even before this ruling there are places where women's lives have been endangered because accessible clinics were forced to close. No matter what state you are in, being an American citizen should guarantee you certain rights. Not being forced t…

I don't think that is true. Which states?

You can go looking at all the laws states have tried to pass over the years that didn't protect the life of the mother or would have forced her to give birth to her rapist's child. You can also look at all the laws which would have made doctors risk their freedom and security for performing a medical procedure that they felt was needed.

You could do that, but I recommend saving some time and just looking at the states which have closed clinics and forced out providers:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/29/health/six-states-with-1-abor...

How many women do you think exist in those states who needed help, but didn't live within driving distance to the one provider in the state and can't afford to take several days off work to travel to get one in another. How many were too busy dying to start booking plane tickets and hotel rooms so they can get the emergency procedure done?

I think some states have been making their position on this pretty clear.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#119

Post by AnimalMuppet »

mystique wrote: post #90

Can someone explain in non-legal way why the court believes an individual has right to decide whether they can wear a mask or not but not whether they can have a medical procedure or not? What's the main difference between these two?

They ruled that the government doesn't have the right to force people to wear masks. The parallel would be deciding that the government doesn't have the right to force people to get abortions - which, if it ever came to that, I'm pretty sure the court would in fact rule.

Re: Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

#120

Post by honkdaddy »

ausbah wrote: post #63
georgia_peach wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have strong opinions about roe or gay marriage. I do have strong opinions against kritarchy. Right or wrong, I don't like the idea of the Yale law school sharia council overriding the will of the electorate. It may have worked for you in recent history, but as they say, " past performance is not indicative of future results ."

eh, there are things that shouldn't be up for debate just because a majority of people wish it to be so. the issue is "what is a right and what isn't"

What else shouldn't be up for debate despite going against the will of the majority?
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