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The Agony of Eros: Dating

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Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#141

Post by bell-cot »

shoo wrote: post #39
djbebs wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbh ghosting isn't as bad as saying one thing and then making excuses to not go through it. I've been on dates where I thought it went well, I got the "let's do this again", and then whenever I suggested "let's do it again on X day?" I get excuses. If they don't want to that's fine, they don't even have to say no just don't reply! But the leading on is annoying...

there are a number of factors involved -- but i reckon one factor to keep in mind is that some fraction of the population may become aggressive if rejected in person, so if you don't know your date well and have no idea how they might react, you might be more concerned about disengaging from the in-person situation safely than being completely open and up front about what you're thinking.

Ugh...but yeah, +1.

OTOH - my sad impression is that quite a few women, especially very young ones, have so many wired-in anxieties / fears / areas of passivity that they'd have a hard time saying "no" to a guy who's receiving Last Rites (and not just out of charity for the dying).

Hopefully, checking that is on the First Date Checklist in at least a few guy's guides... "#7 Verify that she can pleasantly but clearly say no to an oddball suggestion or few. If she actually answers 'yes' to skydiving, learning to read Egyptian hieroglyphs, and baking a cake for your birthday - then she has some issues that you really don't want to be stuck with."

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#142

Post by MezzoDelCammin »

gniv wrote: post #113
MezzoDelCammin wrote: post #15

Is it just me, or does this article really overthink way too much? IMO, dating is ultimately not a subject that could be analyzed by logic. At least not on on the personal / self-help level (of course sociology / statistics still work). Trying to find some kind of generally applicable "rules of the game" that would work for everyone (or even most) people seems somewhat "not even wrong". It's simply trying to use the…

Don't you think a decision that might affect your whole life is worth overthinking? Why couldn't dating be analyzed by logic? If you want a lasting relationship shouldn't you try to think about it, not just feel your way through it?

Oh, I completely agree on the importance of the decision. I'm also not against using logic in general.

Where I disagree is that I don't think any of "my" dates could be generalized. Nor would I like my counterparts to do so.

Why and how we date and what do we expect from a relationship is (IMO) one of the deepest individual characteristics of ourselves.

I agree with the article author on that we should learn to ask these questions of ourselves and of others, but that's about it.

I don't think the answers (or even how do You get to them) can or should be in any way generalized. Some may get to express it through religion, some may use philosophy, or even logic. Most of those will probably run contrary to many others.

Meeting someone for a date is frustrating and exciting often at the same time and often for the same reason - that it's something completely new and (hopefully) unexpected.

If I look back on my own dating life, the dates / relationships I enjoyed most were those where the things we've shared were as varied as those where we differed. And the memorable part was usually the process of discovery, compromises, and learning to deal with each other.

I don't think any of this "can" be generalized in a self help post.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#143

Post by DFHippie »

immigrantheart wrote: post #124
blfr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most women are now in worse shape than the generations before them were at the same age. They may be obsessed with their physiques but mostly because this is a major failing point and obesity epidemic is real.

It is mostly for western/rich countries I think. Asian countries (rich and poor) still don't suffer from obesity.

I believed I had heard differently, that obesity was on the increase globally, not just in the US or the West or rich countries. The first hit from Google:

> In most of the Asian countries the prevalence of overweight and obesity has increased many folds in the past few decades and the magnitude varies between countries [6–15]. South East Asia and Western Pacific region are currently facing an epidemic of diseases associated with obesity such as diabetes and CVD [5, 6].

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2939400/#:~:tex....

ETA: actually, that was the second hit

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#144

Post by twic »

xupybd wrote: post #71
jdrc wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eros did not just represent lust but also love. Agape is a context more limited to christianity, which kind of has anti-sexual overtone. But there were many Erotes representing all kinds of desire and attraction > Anteros ("Love Returned"),[1] Hedylogos ("Sweet-talk"), Hermaphroditus ("Hermaphrodite" or "Effeminate"), Himeros ("Impetuous Love" or "Pressing Desire"), Hymenaios ("Bridal-Hymn"), and Pothos ("Desire, Lon…

Really there is Greek specific to Christian use? That's interesting. I'll have to look into that. It makes sense that different groups used different worlds. There are English terms like sanctification that you don't hear outside Christian circles.

The word 'agape' existed before Christianity, and meant something broadly similar - some kind of love, not necessarily romantic or sexual.

It seems to me that the precise nuance varied a lot over time. For example, the Septuagint, the translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek in ~200 BC, uses it for all forms of love, including in the extremely saucy Song of Solomon [1]. The 20th Delphic maxim (~600 BC) is "Φιλίαν ἀγάπα", which means something like "desire friendship" [2]. In the Odyssey (~700 BC), Eurycleia describes Telemachus as "μοῦνος ἐὼν ἀγαπητός", meaning Odysseus's "only and beloved" son [3].

[1] https://www.patheos.com/blogs/tomhobson/2018/04/how-did-agap...

[2] https://www.hellenion.org/essays-on-hellenic-polytheism/delp...

[3] https://www.loebclassics.com/view/homer-odyssey/1919/pb_LCL1...

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#145

Post by adriand »

jll29 wrote: post #38

This post gets it wrong already in the headline. At least if your happiness (instead of short-term satisfaction) is your objective, it's not about love but about love. Let me explain: the headline mentions "eros" for love, which is one of several (Greek) words for love, but focusing on physical erotics (lust). Nothing wrong with lust per se, but lust considered in isolation can be a selfish thing. Now "agape", anothe…

> Let me explain: the headline mentions "eros" for love, which is one of several (Greek) words for love, but focusing on physical erotics (lust).

Did you read the article? I feel like you wrote your comment to demonstrate your grasp of Greek vocabulary, not because you had a meaningful response to the author of this post — a post which is quite nuanced and interesting and, I might add, not at all focused on lust.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#146

Post by psyc »

dbspin wrote: post #97
tgv wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. "Messed up" doesn't necessarily refer to that. 2. Not everybody thinks that's a good idea. Making out with strangers in a club is definitely trashy. It's the kind of thing that deceives everybody's expectations, also those of the bystanders, and can lead to a problematic outcome. You might want to say that that shouldn't happen in your particular ideal of society, but it does.

Meeting strangers to 'make out' with or 'hook up' with is literally the point of a club. It's been going on ever since humans had festivals and dances. Lets case conservatively 8 - 12k years. What you consider 'trashy' is completely culturally determined, and in this case amusingly bourgeois. This post is part of a wider trend toward sex negativity. It's not predicated on any major social change - in fact young peopl…

I know what you’re going for with ‘culturally determined’ but it’s just so unconvincing. When I was 20, I was part of the culture that went to clubs. Now I’m part of the culture that thinks it’s trashy as all hell, and a fleeting millisecond of’fun’ that isn’t really even that fun.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#147

Post by DavidPiper »

fxtentacle wrote: post #9

I believe this very nicely ties in with "No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31143279 We have turned sexual partners into an affluent commodity, thanks to apps. With a bit of paid boosting, you can show your profile to 1000+ potential partners and surely a few of them will have a favorable first impression. We've also successfully refr…

> i.e. imitating the correct gestures, but very few people put in the effort to actually learn to become a good communicator.

Reminds me of Celeste Headlee's comment: "There's no reason to learn how to show you're paying attention, if you are in fact paying attention."

EDIT: I guess the reversal the article is talking about is that you now need to learn how to pretend not to be an effective communicator, because it's not part of the current social norm.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#148

Post by derbOac »

jawarner wrote: post #129

A lot of comments here missing the point of the article. People are quick to blame apps for dating pain. Reading the article, very few of the author's points are caused by the app-ification of dating. It is easy to blame "the corporations" for social issues. Let's get specific about what is happening. The article does offer good insight, which I'll highlight here: 1. The root of many dating issues is a lack of commun…

I do think apps have something to do with it. Not saying they're evil, but I do think they contribute to the objectification of people. Maybe more importantly, I think they shift the focus in relationships to initial appearances, and onto the evaluation of the other person rather than ones self. I think a lot of this is subtle and not limited to dating.

A lot that's too much for me to put in an HN comment from my phone. A lot gets lost in treating dating similarly to how you'd buy a pair of headphones, and it has consequences. Figuring out what exactly is lost is hard, and addressing it would help a lot of people.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#149

Post by eternalban »

varjag wrote: post #107
smackeyacky wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True love is a very modern concept that used to be restricted to fairytales.

Fairytales are also pre-industrial. My point is exactly that it's not quite appstore-modern.

Quite a few of these are in fact cautionary tales or allegories. (Obsessive romantic) Love in many cultures was considered a sort of madness. Only the elite subset of society had time for romantic amusements in pre-industrial societies.

A lot of these issues (and preoccupations with romance) go out of the window when people are struggling to survive, as most did in pre-industrial societies.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#150

Post by Ultimatt »

librish wrote: post #8

I find the discussion of ghosting interesting. If I've gone on a bad date or two I don't specifically tell the other person I don't want to see them again unless they ask me. This allows for a lot more saving face if I run into them in the future (we can both pretend it just fell through the cracks) and is exactly how I want to be treated. While I appreciate the honesty I do find it a little condescending when someon…

LOL the idea that "just so you know, I don't want to see you again" is the solution to ghosting is hilarious. That's someone being mean to you at a level about as damaging as ghosting. There is this magical thing called care that can be put into words to avoid either. "Just so you know, it was great to see you again, but there isn't anything romantic there for me. Sorry it took me X dates to get there. You're a cool person and I wish you all the best for your next date. I'm sure you'll blow the right person away when you meet them."
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