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Is everything falling apart?

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Re: Is everything falling apart?

#441

Post by sleepdreamy »

Clubber wrote: post #374
bsenftner wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the baby boomers who created the upset of the 60's are now in charge, and their disillusioned leadership is pushing these divisions ever wider. They are the institutions and they do not trust themselves, as is clear via the leadership stalemate and both parties destroying their best hopes in favor of the crumbling and ever more distant wealthy status quo.

>And the baby boomers who created the upset of the 60's are now in charge, and their disillusioned leadership is pushing these divisions ever wider. Why do people think of an entire generation of people as a single minded entity? Might as well say, "women," or "men," or "humans." Did you know the majority of baby boomers weren't hippies? Looking at documentaries of the era, you'd think they were. Many boomers hated h…

Is this sarcasm? It's truly laughable if you don't think boomers had a clear advantage in comparison to Millennials, Gen X, etc;

I'm sorry you didn't reap the benefits of the most benevolent time in America's history but plenty of your Boomer counter-parts sure as hell did. I've met enough Boomers that there is nothing wrong with generalizing Boomers as a whole. Just like a huge percentage of my generation totally gave up and resort to 'UNFAIR MEH WON'T TRY NOW'. Am in that camp? No. I don't get upset when people generalize because it doesn't pertain to me as an individual. There is some truth to prejudice

Boomers had an era of prosperity that we will never see again. My in-laws purchased their first home in 1971 for 60,000. That same home is worth 800,000+

The only reason I can even own a home or compete in my late 20's is because I wasn't naïve enough to think that any degree would pay the bills.

You might not like it, but Boomers took their hoard and pulled the ladder up behind them. It is what it is.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#442

Post by bradlys »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #62
m0llusk wrote: post #34

This is a bit of an oversimplification of the argument. Technology is argued to be a wedge, but this is in the context of well documented social division. In recent memory we were significantly less divided and the most consumed media sources served as moderators. Brushing this off as just another prognostication and everything is always messed up is missing the seriousness of this. It is perhaps fortunate that the U…

There's a lot more political polarization, no doubt, but I'm actually not sure it's true that there's more social division. A few decades ago, basic questions like "is it OK for different races to get married" and "should women participate fully in society" remained unresolved, with a ton of people wielding substantial power sitting on the "no" side. (The Handmaid's Tale wasn't meant to be some crazy impossible premi…

I’d read Robert Putnam’s book Bowling Alone or The Upswing. (Or just watch him talk about it on YouTube)

Social division is definitely higher than it’s ever been in decades.

Racism and sexism is less prevalent but social division is actually higher than ever.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#443

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

rtkwe wrote: post #373
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot more political polarization, no doubt, but I'm actually not sure it's true that there's more social division. A few decades ago, basic questions like "is it OK for different races to get married" and "should women participate fully in society" remained unresolved, with a ton of people wielding substantial power sitting on the "no" side. (The Handmaid's Tale wasn't meant to be some crazy impossible premi…

There's still time for that backslide to happen we're already seeing conservative reactionary groups pushing for returns to before those questions were 'resolved' in more and less direct terms.

I wouldn't claim that a backslide is impossible, but it's important to understand that these weren't just conservative reactionary issues at the time. I have an uncle who got interracially married in the 1990s, and his wife's family were concerned about it because of gender rights - they thought that he as a Hispanic man was going to expect her to be "barefoot and pregnant".

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#444

Post by TimPC »

11101010001100 wrote: post #437
TimPC wrote: post #211

I'd argue that the greater risk of things falling apart is economic rather than political. We've built our society on two near-ponzi schemes that are in danger of falling apart. The first is pension funds which are paid into by current workers to pay out for past workers. Pension funds inherently depend on population growth to avoid shortfalls. They rely on the fact that more people pay into them then take out from t…

Have you compared your parents return of their down payment if they had invested for the same duration in the stock market? I've seen a few cases where it all comes out in the wash...

It might come out in the wash if you ignore the fact that you have to live somewhere. Property taxes and upkeep on a house tend to work out cheaper than skyrocketing rents over the long run. Home upgrades return value on the property. Having freedom to develop the place you live into something you like is incredibly valuable as well.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#446

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

groby_b wrote: post #353
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything that happened to a Baby Boomer was the most extreme ever. All other generations before Baby Boomers and since the Baby Boomers have had an easier time than the Baby Boomers. Their experiences are the Alpha and the Omega of human experience. When they die, the universe probably will cease to exist.

That, frankly, would be a small price to pay to stop hearing arguments about specialness of that generation.

... arguments which are nothing like the ones made on behalf of, say, "The Greatest Generation" that immediately preceded Boomers.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#447

Post by lisper »

notpachet wrote: post #428
lisper wrote: post #205

Things are not falling apart any more than they have in the past. What we are witnessing is a shift in power structure brought about by new communications technology. Humanity has been through this many times before. The invention of writing in the first place empowered the scribes. The printing press disempowered the scribes and empowered publishers . Radio disempowered publishers and empowered broadcasters. The int…

> Things are not falling apart any more than they have in the past. Depends on which window you're looking through, I suppose. Environmentalists would disagree.

Oh yes, absolutely. Climate change is a whole 'nuther kettle o' fish, and it is very, very serious. Nuclear war is also a very real danger. But that's not what TFA was talking about.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#448

Post by shagie »

rabuse wrote: post #383
epicureanideal wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They want a standard of living that requires competitiveness globally, but in this country, we no longer want to work for it. That’s not what I see at all. Most working people in the current generation are working more hours, at more skilled jobs, with more education than their parents, and yet the lifestyle they can afford (aside from tech gadgets) is worse and less secure than their parents. I’m pessimistic about…

This just doesn't seem to be the case with the peers I know, and covid made everything worse for morale. Nobody really wants to work anymore, service speed has fallen off a cliff in my area (South Florida), staff shortages are still in effect, nobody wants to have kids/get married, etc.

> Nobody really wants to work anymore

In many parts of jobs that have public facing people, the perceived increase in the lack of civility has made those jobs much more difficult to accept for any length of time.

The combination of job loss, retraining for jobs that don't deal with the public, and acceptance of austerity (including moving back in with one's parents in some cases) to have an extended duration of no income means that you don't need to accept a job that pays poorly or deals with uncivil people.

I'm going to point to https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate that shows the unemployment rate equal to what it was in December 2019.

People want to work and are working - they've just changed what they're working.

If one wants to place blame on the "no one wants to work" I would suggest reading https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleystahl/2022/03/03/are-boom... and https://wapo.st/39vvXxP

> service speed has fallen off a cliff

This has resulted in a reduction of capacity in many parts of the service industry.

> staff shortages are still in effect

A lot of people upskilled in the past two years and those staff shortages will remain until a new cohort of workers exists in that area that lack the skills to get the better paying jobs that don't interact with the public.

> nobody wants to have kids/get married

While the marriage rate has dropped precariously, I'll point to https://www.statista.com/statistics/195951/marriage-rate-in-... and point out that the chart ends in 2020 and that weddings weren't things that were easily held in the past two years either. However, the trend that is shown in that graph is one that has lasted for three decades - not three years.

However, https://www.statista.com/statistics/183663/number-of-married... also shows an interesting chart where the number of married people has increased fairly consistently though the recessions are evident in there - I suspect we'll see another one.

The "no one wants to have kids" needs to also be put into context of the percent of the cost of raising a child against the income and wealth for the generational cohort.

https://money.cnn.com/2011/09/21/pf/cost_raising_child/index... shows a substantial increase in cost in the 2000 to 2010 timeframe. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-cost-of-child-care-... puts it in a different light.

Still, if one is paying off their own college loans it is difficult to think of adding to that putting away money for a child's college costs. If a household is living pretty much paycheck to paycheck or has significant debt that they're paying down for whatever reason, having a child with an additional amount of cost would be considered to be unwise for people who have a fiscally responsible mind.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#449

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

mym1990 wrote: post #382
diputsmonro wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> the alternative is one must simply be skeptical of the good judgment of one's neighbors, and people don't want to live like that. People love being skeptical of their neighbors' judgement, what they're afraid of is being skeptical of their own. They can't handle backing the wrong horse, so instead they declare that the system is wrong

Was just going to say this. We have gotten away from any kind of accountability as a standard, and some of that is driven by the fact that our leadership(no one specific, talking about the state of global leadership currently) shows no accountability either.

The system is wrong. It already has been corrupted to a very large degree, because, surprise, people who gained power, like to retain it and an average power broker is as willing to let go of it as an average mollusc attached to a rock.

The problem is that workable solution within the confines of the system requires somewhat educated populace. Or maybe not educated given the state of education in US.

I do see signs of hope in the form of push to 'return to office' mandates ( I just threw a middle finger to HR for denying my remote myself simply refusing to come back ). People seem to rediscover that the rules are really 'by the consent of the governed' and there is strength in numbers.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#450

Post by chucksmash »

refurb wrote: post #255
giantg2 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My grandfather worked for the steel mills. Some workers didn't get anything for their pensions. He was one of the lucky ones and got something, like 10 cents on the dollar. I think they even stopped sending them before he died (remember him saying something about that was the last check and complaining about the company).

Pensions are all insured in the US

That doesn't mean you will get what you were promised if the pension was underfunded[1]:

> If you look at multiemployer plans, those people worked in coal mines, driving trucks, in bakeries — typically physical, difficult jobs, and they certainly earned the pension they were promised by their union. Now, some of them are 70-years-old and in retirement and have the terrible prospect of having their pension cut.

> There’s a government backstop for private pensions, but the government backstop for multiemployer plans is very modest

[1]: https://ideas.darden.virginia.edu/underfunded-pensions

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