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Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

reuters.com

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Re: Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

#11

Post by reallybiteshu »

gbanfalvi wrote: post #9
tus666 wrote: post #3

Sweden admits the Left is IN-correct?

Not sure it was “the left’s” fault. It was Olof Palme, a famously leftist prime minister that facilitated refugee immigration – but Sweden also had much more “aggressive” integration policies. There was more effort put into training to get immigrants into the labor market, housing was less segregated… a lot of that ended and it will continue to get worse as the country turns right wing. But it’s going to happen with…

The country is turning right wing because your precious refugees do grenade attacks on a daily basis.

There is a point where the left needs to wake up, smell the coffee and realize that not all people are alike, not all groups are alike.

The idea that you can absorb any culture into any culture is completely absurd on its face, and now we have a proof of that not just in Sweden but in basically any Western country that tried to do the same thing (and in fact non-Western countries too, although in their cases they rarely welcomed mass immigration of people from different cultures on purpose, it's generally more a series of unfortunate incidents of history, because everyone has known for ages that it was generally a bad thing).

Re: Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

#12

Post by jleyank »

adamrezich wrote: post #5
jleyank wrote: post #4

[flagged]

I wonder if we'll ever get over the hump in human development of assuming "bigotry" as the root cause of everything bad in the world. obviously it exists, but the world is more nuanced than "bigots ruin everything for non-bigots" being the core of every issue . by no means is it a mystery as to how we got here, but still, it's disappointing that we seem to have sort of high-centered on this false idea that unlimited…

Bigotry is a piece of jargon meaning “those who hate them”. What else do you call somebody burning a religious book for the sole purpose of generating a response? Would you prefer fascist? Nihilistic performance artist?

There is no sane way to defend these actions, so those offended by what I’m writing must be nuts or participants frustrated on being outed.

And it’s quite disappointing the right wing leaning of at least some of hacker news. As there’s anonymity in up and down grades, they might all be trolls. But there’s a lot of fondness for cash here along with much less interest in helping others with it.

Y’all win. Have fun in the stew.

Re: Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

#13

Post by adamrezich »

jleyank wrote: post #12
adamrezich wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if we'll ever get over the hump in human development of assuming "bigotry" as the root cause of everything bad in the world. obviously it exists, but the world is more nuanced than "bigots ruin everything for non-bigots" being the core of every issue . by no means is it a mystery as to how we got here, but still, it's disappointing that we seem to have sort of high-centered on this false idea that unlimited…

Bigotry is a piece of jargon meaning “those who hate them ”. What else do you call somebody burning a religious book for the sole purpose of generating a response? Would you prefer fascist? Nihilistic performance artist? There is no sane way to defend these actions, so those offended by what I’m writing must be nuts or participants frustrated on being outed. And it’s quite disappointing the right wing leaning of at l…

I don't pay very much attention to goings-on in Sweden but just to make sure we have our causality straight here: how far into their mass migration did these book-burnings begin, and how was integration doing before that? (seeing as how you're blaming book-burning—which, without examining things further, I assume to be a political stunt distastefully attempting to make a point/draw attention to the issue—for the integration difficulties.)

Re: Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

#15

Post by throwawaymanbot »

reallybiteshu wrote: post #11
gbanfalvi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure it was “the left’s” fault. It was Olof Palme, a famously leftist prime minister that facilitated refugee immigration – but Sweden also had much more “aggressive” integration policies. There was more effort put into training to get immigrants into the labor market, housing was less segregated… a lot of that ended and it will continue to get worse as the country turns right wing. But it’s going to happen with…

The country is turning right wing because your precious refugees do grenade attacks on a daily basis. There is a point where the left needs to wake up, smell the coffee and realize that not all people are alike, not all groups are alike. The idea that you can absorb any culture into any culture is completely absurd on its face, and now we have a proof of that not just in Sweden but in basically any Western country th…

No post body was provided.

Re: Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

#16

Post by armchairhacker »

It’s not fair to flat-out ban refugees (or ban types of refugees such as men): these are, by definition, people escaping unstable authoritarian governments where they aren’t safe and don’t have fundamental human rights.

But that’s it. And refugees take up land and social services, so they should be required to give back (if only because refugee programs simply won’t work otherwise, and countries will try to block or pass on refugees. Exactly what the US/Europe are doing and have been doing the last few years).

I see no issue in:

- Relocating refugees to another developed country (not Libya, not Turkey, maybe Greece)

- Requiring able-bodied refugees to work (in decent conditions, not back-breaking labor, but still in manufacturing or service or IT if they’re capable. Again, because there’s literally no other alternative to pay for these refugees)

- Swiftly deporting refugees when they commit crimes (with a fair trial and evidence beyond considerable doubt, but given these people are being videotaped that should be pretty easy)

- Cracking down on protests like these and making it very clear that refugees can keep their own religion and culture, but can’t enforce it on others, who also can burn books and say whatever they want.

- Tracking and monitoring refugees, at least for a couple years, for the sake of security and to assure people they aren’t terrorists.

Sweden’s approach of just letting in refugees is too liberal. Nationalism and flat-out anti-refugee rhetoric like Trump and Marine Le Pen is too conservative. The bottom line is: give refugees space, essentials, freedom, and refuge, but require them to behave and give back.

Re: Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

#17

Post by arinlen »

drtrq wrote: post #14

Quoted post unavailable.

> Disrespect these immigrants. Burn their holy book, call them terrorises when they demonstrate legally. Then talk about “integration failure”.

Can you please provide your best example of how any immigrant was "disrespected"?

Keep in mind you're talking about a nation which welcomed them with open arms when they needed the most, and was extremely generous with it's support.

> Burn their holy book, call them terrorises when they demonstrate legally.

Sweden is a liberal democracy, where freedom of speech is one of its founding principles. Mishandling a religious book does not justify aimless riots, specially if what you're directing your protests at the society which welcomed you.

Re: Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

#18

Post by skissane »

armchairhacker wrote: post #16

It’s not fair to flat-out ban refugees (or ban types of refugees such as men): these are, by definition, people escaping unstable authoritarian governments where they aren’t safe and don’t have fundamental human rights. But that’s it. And refugees take up land and social services, so they should be required to give back (if only because refugee programs simply won’t work otherwise, and countries will try to block or…

> - Relocating refugees to another developed country (not Libya, not Turkey, maybe Greece)

Refugees fleeing the war in Syria – let's agree they had the right to go somewhere safe, and the rest of the world had a duty to provide them with somewhere safe to go – but does a refugee have a right to refuge in a developed country in particular? Especially when the country from which they came wasn't, prior to the start of the war/conflict, generally counted as "developed"?

The idea that refugees from a conflict should primarily be hosted by neighbouring countries, who are likely to have much greater cultural/linguistic similarity, rather than by substantially more distant countries with far less cultural commonality, doesn't seem unreasonable. If a country is developing/middle income, and so are most of its neighbours – you can understand why refugees might greatly prefer to seek refuge in a much richer country much further away, rather than its economically more similar immediate neighbours – but are we obliged to honour that preference?

Given the majority of Syrian refugees were Muslim – why didn't the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation take the lead in resettling them in Muslim-majority countries? Or similarly – given Syria is part of the Arab world, why didn't the Arab League resettle them in other Arab states?

Re: Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

#19

Post by newfriend »

armchairhacker wrote: post #16

It’s not fair to flat-out ban refugees (or ban types of refugees such as men): these are, by definition, people escaping unstable authoritarian governments where they aren’t safe and don’t have fundamental human rights. But that’s it. And refugees take up land and social services, so they should be required to give back (if only because refugee programs simply won’t work otherwise, and countries will try to block or…

It's not fair to current citizens to import random people from vastly different societies into their lives and ask them to support them.

> - Relocating refugees to another developed country (not Libya, not Turkey, maybe Greece)

Yes of course -- Greece. Why is it necessary to move these people to certain countries. Why not Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Morocco or any number of other countries. No of course it has to be Sweden, France, England, etc.

> Nationalism and flat-out anti-refugee rhetoric like Trump and Marine Le Pen is too conservative.

Importing endless amounts of refugees is bad for citizens -- the people the government is supposed to work to protect and serve.

Re: Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime

#20

Post by anamax »

adamrezich wrote: post #13
jleyank wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bigotry is a piece of jargon meaning “those who hate them ”. What else do you call somebody burning a religious book for the sole purpose of generating a response? Would you prefer fascist? Nihilistic performance artist? There is no sane way to defend these actions, so those offended by what I’m writing must be nuts or participants frustrated on being outed. And it’s quite disappointing the right wing leaning of at l…

I don't pay very much attention to goings-on in Sweden but just to make sure we have our causality straight here: how far into their mass migration did these book-burnings begin, and how was integration doing before that? (seeing as how you're blaming book-burning—which, without examining things further, I assume to be a political stunt distastefully attempting to make a point/draw attention to the issue—for the inte…

It's not okay to disrespect some religions but it is acceptable, praiseworthy even, to disrespect others.

That will end well.

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