Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments • Hacker News Board

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#351

Post by asdff » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 9:54 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #12

Why are dentists so scammy? In Norway I've seen documentaries about them sending the same people to multiple dentists, and some of them receive wildly different advice. Some of that can be ascribed to some being in the school of pro-active, so they want to fix your teeth at the first glance of issues. But in the end, most of the things being quoted were unnecessary. They all seemed very intent on removing wisdom teet…

I think its because they don't keep up with the field. You have some dentists who learn how things are done when they are in dental school in the 1970s and that's how they continue to operate in their private practice until they retire. They might also be good friends with other specialists and will send their patients there because of that relationship (and they do at least trust their work). There are also different philosophies. Some dentists might prefer you keep original tooth if possible and have you get some advanced imaging done before they decide a treatment plan; others might lean on the side of avoiding additional imaging and just pulling the tooth assuming it is compromised.

To get around that, I prefer to get dental work done at dental schools. The faculty at the schools have their own practices within the schools, and you can be sure that they are doing all the up to date stuff that is currently being taught and following sensible practices in terms of treatment plans. Prices are also fair. If you opt for a student dentist its even cheaper and many low income people use this service (although appointments are much longer since everything they do has to be signed off by a faculty member responsible for a floor of students).

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#352

Post by ipaddr » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 9:57 PM UTC

albrewer wrote: post #281

salsadip wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I‘m really not trying to sound snarky, but - is this the supposedly high quality treatment that U.S. citizens get that is so much more expensive as opposed to the „socialized“ insurance we get in Europe that is cheaper for everybody and supposedly therefore not as good/cutting edge?

In my experience the quality varies wildly, but every doctor has a base level of knowledge that is far deeper than a layperson. The quality of that knowledge is usually very high, and seems to be pretty well retained by most doctors I've met. The quality of the actual doctor varies on whether the doctor is a lifelong learner, a deep thinker, a good listener, is good at extracting information from people who are bad a…

Most have knowledge of what they studied in college and what worked over the years and by worked they mean did not get sued, made the most money on and worked quickly.

They are not paid by outcome they are paid by referrals, tests, drugs sold and consulting

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#353

Post by asdff » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 9:58 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #17

matsemann wrote: post #12

Why are dentists so scammy? In Norway I've seen documentaries about them sending the same people to multiple dentists, and some of them receive wildly different advice. Some of that can be ascribed to some being in the school of pro-active, so they want to fix your teeth at the first glance of issues. But in the end, most of the things being quoted were unnecessary. They all seemed very intent on removing wisdom teet…

I went to a new dentist for a broken filling and they tried to tell me I had 14 cavities and set me down with a finance person to set up a payment plan for how I was going to pay for them over the next 5 years. I went to a second dentist, they fixed the broken filling and said my teeth were otherwise fine. I have the paperwork to back this up. I’d been seeing another dentist for a while and he suddenly wanted to crow…

If you are in need of cavities repaired I suggest getting in touch with your local dental school. Once a year there will be a practical where students have to repair caveties on a patient, so they will often offer free cavity screening + repair to the public for these exams. When I went to one, they discovered a few very small ones that looked like they could get bad in the future and opted to just do them right then. Dental schools outside of this are probably the cheapest way to have competent dental work done especially if you are uninsured (payment plans will be very permissive too)

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#354

Post by nitwit005 » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 10:02 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #12

Why are dentists so scammy? In Norway I've seen documentaries about them sending the same people to multiple dentists, and some of them receive wildly different advice. Some of that can be ascribed to some being in the school of pro-active, so they want to fix your teeth at the first glance of issues. But in the end, most of the things being quoted were unnecessary. They all seemed very intent on removing wisdom teet…

If you want a laugh, walk into a chiropractor's office, and learn about the many issues your spine has.

People tend to be unfortunately incentivized to find something wrong with you, as they get paid based on treatments performed.

In the US, this produced the idea of Health maintenance organizations (HMOs), where there is a large member count paying a fixed fee. The hope was they'd want to spend on preventative care, and minimize other costs.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#355

Post by asdff » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

ccwilson10 wrote: post #254

donatj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a new dentist for a broken filling and they tried to tell me I had 14 cavities and set me down with a finance person to set up a payment plan for how I was going to pay for them over the next 5 years. I went to a second dentist, they fixed the broken filling and said my teeth were otherwise fine. I have the paperwork to back this up. I’d been seeing another dentist for a while and he suddenly wanted to crow…

Wife is a dentist. There certainly are practices where treatments are recommended as a function of money and cashflow (laser treatment and other "optional" treatments are a great example of this). However, crown / cavity recommendations are largely dependent on how aggressive that particular dentist's philosophy is. E.g. my wife only goes to her father for treatment because he focuses on saving teeth whenever possibl…

This is why I like going to dental schools faculty or student practices. They are all about saving the teeth if it can be saved and will need to see sufficient evidence in the imaging before moving forward with just about anything. Things seem to take longer and involve more appointments (e.g. i have to schedule a separate appointment with dept of radiology vs the private practice dentist walking me to the next room with the xray), but it seems like every decision involves multiple dental professors looking at my imagery or feeling up my teeth or gums before anything is done, which definitely boosts my confidence. I like having a committee and hearing them discuss the evidence in this war room setting when I'm laying there on the chair mouth open

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#356

Post by bartimus » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 10:05 PM UTC

es7 wrote: post #157

Low-quality SEO content marketing has been taking up more and more of Google Search results in the past decade. Maybe it has always been this way, but anecdotally it feels like it has gotten so much worse in the last few years. The exception to the SEO spam rule seems to be a small subset of “highly trusted sources”, that at least for medical information seem to be biased pretty heavily towards “don’t say anything th…

It's always been bad. But Google has always been less bad then other search engines.

Then also you need to ask the right question. Googling something like "Toyota RAV4" will give wildly different results than "common problems with Toyota RAV4".

In this particular case the better question should've perhaps been something like:

"scientific evidence effectiveness lazer bacterial reduction"

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#357

Post by FollowingTheDao » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 10:06 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #337

pessimizer wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason it's a good idea to clean your teeth is because if you don't they'll stink and become discolored. It's not because it keeps them healthy, because cleaning your teeth strips some protection from bacteria and acids away from them while deepening the pockets around them, creating a nice place for disease to live. The idea that intensely cleaning your teeth (and keeping them white) is healthy is an intuitive l…

>Fossils have better teeth than we do, but we have prettier, less fragrant teeth. That's because those fossils had way less access to sugar, which is the main reason we need so much more dental hygiene nowadays.

You all think sugar causes tooth decay, no, sorry. It's lipids. Not all bacteria use glucose, most use fatty acids for energy.

https://www.dentaleconomics.com/science-tech/oral-medicine-a...

It is more probably that the sugar throws off lipid metabolic and that changes the oral microbiome.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#358

Post by Vecr » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 10:07 PM UTC

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #342

JamesBarney wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roughly a third of our healthcare spending is socialized medicine, and Medicare and Medicaid have the same issues we do.

1/3 We do not have anything close to socialized medicine.

I don't understand what you mean, not being universal does not have any bearing on that. The care is paid out of taxes.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#359

Post by FollowingTheDao » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 10:07 PM UTC

sbcd wrote: post #340

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you leave the plaque and tartar on the teeth without fixing the fundamental problem (immune health) then there of course will not be better health outcomes. Caries are a sign of an immune disorder or imbalance. As long as dentists only scrape peoples teeth and do not integrate their health into their practice you will keep having plaques and tartar to be remove as your body fight this battle. https://www.lupus.org…

>Caries are a sign of an immune disorder or imbalance Or just terrible habits like drinking liters of soda everyday. Besides the diabetes, the mix of sugar and acid is terrible for dental health, and contrary to the myth, brushing your teeth will not save them, at all, if one persists in terrible habits.

Sugar does not directly cause oral microbiome imbalance. Lipids do.

https://www.dentaleconomics.com/science-tech/oral-medicine-a...

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#360

Post by asdff » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

bartimus wrote: post #356

es7 wrote: post #157

Low-quality SEO content marketing has been taking up more and more of Google Search results in the past decade. Maybe it has always been this way, but anecdotally it feels like it has gotten so much worse in the last few years. The exception to the SEO spam rule seems to be a small subset of “highly trusted sources”, that at least for medical information seem to be biased pretty heavily towards “don’t say anything th…

It's always been bad. But Google has always been less bad then other search engines. Then also you need to ask the right question. Googling something like "Toyota RAV4" will give wildly different results than "common problems with Toyota RAV4". In this particular case the better question should've perhaps been something like: "scientific evidence effectiveness lazer bacterial reduction"

There are times when I just cannot come up with the terms to get past the SEO at all and just give up, not knowing the answer or finding the relevant source. It seems like it happens all the time these days. You end up with something like writers block coming up with new ways to frame the question to shake off the spam. The best I can hope for usually is appending site:usuallyrelevantinfo.com to a term but that requires a priori knowing these good sites for a given topic.