Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments • Hacker News Board

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#261

Post by blakesterz » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:38 PM UTC

Auracle wrote: post #246

salsadip wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I‘m really not trying to sound snarky, but - is this the supposedly high quality treatment that U.S. citizens get that is so much more expensive as opposed to the „socialized“ insurance we get in Europe that is cheaper for everybody and supposedly therefore not as good/cutting edge?

If you go to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota you'll see people from all over the world for a reason. It feels like the UN, where everyone has some sort of debilitating disease. They have a system where you get evaluated by a general practitioner (or someone more relevant), and then they schedule you to see however many specialists you might need to see - all within a day or two. It's not perfect, and I've found it's sti…

I'll second the Mayo Clinic. I've (unfortunately) spent way too much time there, and it just can't be beat. I wish every hospital/doctor/system worked like this place. I doubt that's even possible, anywhere, but from my experience, it's how medicine should work.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#262

Post by FollowingTheDao » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:39 PM UTC

andreareina wrote: post #245

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And did you know dental plaque and tartar are actually protecting your teeth? And just because vanity we want to get it removed? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17016887/

In vitro study shows that plaque protects against externally-applied acid. Ok. Now what about the acid produced by the bacteria hiding behind the plaque?

Just because dental caries show up with plaque and tartar in no way means that plaque and tartar are causing the caries. These are the mechanism our body uses to protect our teeth from unbalanced oral bacteria. Just like the microbiome of the gut, we have one in our mouth. Removing plaque and tartar does not stop caries.

Caries are initiated by direct demineralization of the enamel of teeth due to lactic acid and other organic acids which accumulate in dental plaque. What is tartar?

Heavy staining and calculus deposits exhibited on the lingual surface of the mandibular anterior teeth, along the gumline

Tartar is a form of hardened dental plaque. It is caused by precipitation of minerals from saliva and gingival crevicular fluid in plaque on the teeth. This process of precipitation kills the bacterial cells within dental plaque.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#263

Post by DrBoring » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #40

“ Medicine has become a three-way negotiation between you, your doctor, and The Algorithm.” This characterization makes it sound like a good thing. In reality, the doctor’s responsibility is being pushed to the patient because they are overbooked in the name of economic efficiency. As a patient with complex, non-specific medical condition, I can tell you how miserable this is. I can’t count on doctors _at all_ to mov…

In my experience as a software developer, I've grouped my peers into a few different categories. This is just a rough estimate based a small sample set, there are probably various gradients in-between.

1. Super coders: These are the coders who write the algorithms that pave the way for coders below them.

2. Natural coders: Competent coders who take to the craft easily. Can easily learn new things, but probably won't be designing the next great video codec. (I fall here)

3. Amateur coders: that somehow got hired. These are the coders that you curse because you're always cleaning up after them.

...

I have a theory that the same medical professionals have similar categories. This theory was first formed when I once saw a doctor who, on my first visit, regaled me with stories of taking Uber into the city for a night of drinking.

I'd put this guy in the lowest category of medical professionals. He's there to make money by providing a service with little regard for the long term outcomes of his patients.

There is more to the ranking than his crass unprofessional behavior. Upon leaving the appointment, I was given a card with a request that I rate him on some rate-my-doctor.com ... It had the same slimy feeling as one of those "give us 5 stars" cards found inside the box of many product sold on Amazon.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#264

Post by vasco » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #230

vasco wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your opinion is that if research tells you that you should overrule a doctor's opinion, the right course of action is to not bring it up, not do the research in the first place, because the doctor "knows better"? In my opinion if you disagree or have doubts about treatment you should definitely bring those up with your doctor, see what they say about your reservations, and either get convinced or find some second…

Everyone's using that word in this thread: research. Watching a bunch of YouTube videos is not research. Browsing medical web sites and choosing "treatments" that are cleverly and subtly marketed to you is not research. Matching your symptoms with a TV ad is not research. We saw what two years of "dO yOuR oWn ReSeArCh!" left us with during a deadly pandemic. We're all dunking on doctors in this thread, but look at it…

Maybe you should reply to those comments instead. I mentioned:

- reading medical research papers

- bringing detailed information about your symptoms

- mentioning things you ruled out and things you've tried

- having a good understanding of your medical history

I didn't mention ads on tv, youtube videos or HN comments. Perhaps you should reserve your outrage for the proper place.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#265

Post by FollowingTheDao » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:47 PM UTC

resoluteteeth wrote: post #248

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And did you know dental plaque and tartar are actually protecting your teeth? And just because vanity we want to get it removed? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17016887/

Just because having plaque on your teeth will block acids doesn't mean it's actually a good idea not to clean your teeth. I guess if you could show a study showing that leaving plaque/tartar on teeth leads to better health outcomes I might be interested.

If you leave the plaque and tartar on the teeth without fixing the fundamental problem (immune health) then there of course will not be better health outcomes.

Caries are a sign of an immune disorder or imbalance. As long as dentists only scrape peoples teeth and do not integrate their health into their practice you will keep having plaques and tartar to be remove as your body fight this battle.

https://www.lupus.org/news/people-with-lupus-exhibit-increas...

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#266

Post by jrockway » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:51 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #220

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dentists don’t remove wisdom teeth, they just refer you to an oral surgeon. The problem with wisdom teeth is that they increase maintenance requirements, it’s hard to clean back there and they can affect adjacent teeth if they do go bad. So I get why many dentists default suggest to remove them (I still have mine but recently started running into problems at 47).

Yes, there is a risk of complications with wisdom tooth removal. I was lucky twice, but when I had the lower ones removed, I got an infection blowing up the side of my face with a racketball-sized lump. The oral surgeon had to prescribe anti-biotics and follow up with a "debridement", reopening the site, draining and flushing it. No fun at all. Also not something that's normally done at a dentist's office. No way wou…

I had all of my wisdom teeth removed with just local anesthetic and nitrous oxide. It is certainly an interesting experience as you listen to your teeth being broken up by what amounts to a large ice pick. It didn't really bother me though.

The worst part of the entire procedure was that they wouldn't call my prescriptions into the pharmacy in advance, so I could just go home and not run errands after the procedure. I guess people will schedule fake wisdom teeth removal so they can get a 3 day supply of Tylenol with codeine? I remember being very annoyed waiting around for a half hour in some grocery store with my mouth full of gauze and the pain setting in. Would have preferred to be at home in bed. Sigh! At least I don't have any more wisdom teeth.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#267

Post by gehwartzen » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:52 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #108

gehwartzen wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US its because dental insurance isn't part of normal health insurance. Dental insurance mostly just covers the bare bones (teeth?) treatments like regular cleanings and an xray every couple of years. SO in order for the Dentist to make money they ahve to upsell every other treatment not covered by insurance. With regulars health insurance the doc is payed for pretty much any specific treatment they de…

I'm curious if you'll reread your comment and can see how you disproved your own point.

I'm not sure I see the contradiction? I'm just saying that if regular health care only covered something like wellness visits and a cast every other year they would probably be more likely to try and sell you additional services to drive their revenue.

And by upsell I just mean convincing you the financial burden is worth the proposed extra treatment. Right now as long as I have health insurance I don't care abut the extra cost of extra treatments beyond a health check because I don't directly bear the cost.

I mean pretty much every other health related thing that's not covered by insurance has the same dynamics; eye care, cosmetic surgery.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#268

Post by wintermutestwin » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

richbell wrote: post #102

bostonsre wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as opposed to chiropractors, who are universally charlatans and frauds I take it you've never thrown your back out and had an adjustment that fixed a lot of pain?

> I take it you've never thrown your back out and had an adjustment that fixed a lot of pain? A _good_ chiropractor will only perform adjustments, but the foundations of Chiropractic "medicine" is pseudoscience that many still practice to this day. Wikipedia has a good summary on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic#Pseudoscience_ver... But, in my opinion, if you're only going to a chiropractor for adjust…

In the past, I spent a lot of money on chiros basically "cracking" my back. I eventually taught my partner how to do it and she does it so much better than any chiro ever did.

One thing I will say after having seen ~10 chiros is that the ones who actually x-ray you are the only ones I would place any trust in.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#269

Post by chrisdhal » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

elteto wrote: post #5

I have found that dental clinics in the US can be some of the shadiest health related businesses you have to deal with. There are few independent clinics around. Most of them belong to huge corporate conglomerates that push down shady treatments like this, or offer predatory financing for these “treatments”. I’ve had only two instances of a health professional outright lying to me and telling me I had a health condit…

Maybe that's regional? In my area (Minneapolis/St. Paul metro), there are tons of independent dentists and few conglomerates (at least that I know of). In my little-ish suburb (25k people) there are no corporate ones but about 6 independent ones.

I go to an independent office (2 dentists) and I've never felt pressured by them and they've even said things like, "It looks like that may turn into a cavity, but we can wait and see what happens."

Obviously I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but like anything, it's not everywhere.

Re: Google almost convinced me to spend $400 on useless laser treatments

#270

Post by cupofpython » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #258

cupofpython wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can’t count on doctors _at all_ to move the process forward. This has been my experience as well dealing with fatigue. I was 25 when I finally got diagnosed with sleep apnea, after over a decade of symptoms. How something so common could go unnoticed by the adults and professional doctors in my life astonishes me still today. Eventually, thanks to ego, I questioned the narrative that I was just normal and lazy. Wi…

I think the situation has improved there in the last couple years. I had a friend who I suspected of having sleep apnea. She called her doctor and asked for a sleep study. They gave her a device to wear while sleeping and the diagnosis of sleep apnea came the next day. Getting insurance to approve the CPAP, though... that is still an open problem. Weeks later, no treatment for diagnosed disease.

>I had a friend who I suspected of having sleep apnea. She called her doctor and asked for a sleep study

It doesnt sound like the situation has improved. Without a friend like you, would she have received treatment?

I think the community has gotten better at addressing the undiagnosed sleep apnea epidemic. When I needed help, there were some discussions about it on forums that I could find with the right search terms. Now, it's become much more common knowledge on the internet that people can spot it in others. which is fantastic.

The Doctors still seem to suck at it. For starters, fatigue is possibly the single most common symptom of disease - and is not something proactively asked about by doctors (in my experience). Every doctor at every check in should be asking "How tired have you been?". The fact that you can notice apnea in your friend before trained professionals even suspect to ask about it is the problem.

And the bigger problem is that even if we address this for apnea, how are we to know how many other issues are going around waiting for the patients to bring it up themselves? I certainly no longer trust that proactive diagnostic due diligence is being done on anything other than blood test result levels.

Doctors rely on patient complaints to govern their behavior. full stop. Check-ins and physicals are way more superficial than most patients understand, imo. Still very helpful, but not nearly enough