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Gen Z does not dream of labor

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Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#451
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if they visited, they'd find their assumptions to be unwarranted racism. It isn't as diverse as some other parts of the country, but there's groups of people from all over the world. Within a 2 hour drive from me, you'll find enclaves from Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Mexico and others.

If not wanting to live in an enclave as a nominally second-class citizen is racist, then I don't know what to say. Let's not deny reality here, that's really what you end up being if you try to interact with the main racial group in a rural area, or at least the vast majority of them. It doesn't matter what race this happens to be, it's how people work. I know an Englishman who lives in an Indonesian village (not an…

If you’re not very wealthy, and you’re living on the west coast, you’re a second class citizen there too. At least in Minnesota the rent is lower.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#452
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Czechs are not referred to as bohemians. Gypsies are not referred to as bohemians. And I don't just "think" it is lifestyle. I checked multiple dictionaries and they all refer to it as lifestyle. And the way it was used, it was always used as lifestyle. I never even seen it being used for either czechs or gypsies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia

That does not prove anyone nowdays refers to Czechs or gypsies as Bohemians. Bohemia is not even made fun of within czech republic, there are no special negative stereotypes or oppression made to it. They call themselves czechs, they don't tend to refer to themselves as bohemians.

It just ... exists. And contains capital.

And the word in English means what I wrote and not whatever you imagine it to mean.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing, but still rural city in the Midwest I visited a few weeks back has decent homes for sale in the 50-80k range. This is not an outlier. Roughly 2/3 of Americans own homes. If you live in an area where homes are priced like luxury investments, then yes, you'll have a hard time buying when you also cannot afford other luxuries. If you live in an area where they are not, it isn't unattainable at all, especially i…

Many people would consider a suggestion to live in the Midwest as about the same as a suggestion that they spend the rest of their life living in a decrepit sewer system.

I hope they never think otherwise.

Every time the Midwest comes up on this site, you get these laughably stupid takes that it's some bombed-out shithole with no jobs other than crime, and where people kill minorities on sight. At least once every couple weeks, there will be a decently sized comment thread about how it's economically desolate and morally evil, and that no sane person would ever move here.

My only response to that is please don't ever stop believing that. Stay away. Don't come crush the housing market with your $200k+ FAANG salary so you can tut-tut the people that live here about how racist, sexist, classist, etc. they are despite having never actually talked to one of them in your life. For those that got dealt a bad hand in life, there is at least a chance for them in the Midwest. If keeping that chance alive means that somebody living in a coastal city thinks my community is human garbage, so be it.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#454
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have to choose your specialization wisely The problem is that most people don't get to choose. There are few of these high paying jobs, so by definition most people are excluded. Either because they're not "smart" enough to get into elite training programs (e.g. medical school) or because they don't have enough money to spend years in training with zero or negative income.

There are other jobs than doctor. You can become a registered nurse with only a bachelor's ($100k+ salary). Engineering pays well. The trades pay well. What doesn't pay well is zero-effort required jobs like Starbucks barista or social media influencer (is this even a job?). If anyone can do it with no pain required to pass some sort of schooling then it's not going to pay well. Nursing pays well because people are t…

I'd get absolutely chewed out as a Starbucks barista or working in food service in general. I don't think it's fair to say it's a job that requires zero effort.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#455
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should try to understand why certain kinds of people (of, perhaps the non-white kind) would not want to move into an insular community?

Maybe if they visited, they'd find their assumptions to be unwarranted racism. It isn't as diverse as some other parts of the country, but there's groups of people from all over the world. Within a 2 hour drive from me, you'll find enclaves from Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Mexico and others.

Have you tried being trans there? No? Okay then.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The places I've seen with houses in the $50k to $80k range are in Rust Belt-esque areas whose time has long passed, or in places where a "career" means working at Walmart or cooking methamphetamine. Their economic prospects aren't that great, and their long term economic prospects are even worse. Rural areas also tend not to be great places for LGBT people, either.

Rural areas also tend not to be great places for LGBT people, either. That may be true in some areas. I can only speak anecdotally. I brought a couple members of the LGBT community with me to a very rural area that is about as cowboy-midwest as it gets. Everyone has been very civil and even the "Good ol boys" have been very respectful with them to my pleasant surprise. There are plenty of openly LGBT working in the l…

Maybe individual people are nice to their face, but they'll still vote for the guys who implement "don't say gay" bills and the like, with is pretty anti-lgbtq

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#457
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia

That does not prove anyone nowdays refers to Czechs or gypsies as Bohemians. Bohemia is not even made fun of within czech republic, there are no special negative stereotypes or oppression made to it. They call themselves czechs, they don't tend to refer to themselves as bohemians. It just ... exists. And contains capital. And the word in English means what I wrote and not whatever you imagine it to mean.

Strange, my father's entire family (emigrated from the region in the late 1800's) still refer to themselves as Czech and Bohemians almost interchangeably. It has fallen out of use, but "bohunk" was an ethnic slur that was semi-common for most of my grandparents lives.

To be clear, I am not saying that the word bohemian is used as a slur. I am merely finding it ironic that people who have qualms about things like "master" in git or "microagressions" have no problem using a word that was used in France to make light of any genetic eastern Europeans. "bohemian" as an artsy, free living, dirt poor hippy utterly erases centuries of history of a real people (not even the people they thought it applied to).

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#458
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have to choose your specialization wisely The problem is that most people don't get to choose. There are few of these high paying jobs, so by definition most people are excluded. Either because they're not "smart" enough to get into elite training programs (e.g. medical school) or because they don't have enough money to spend years in training with zero or negative income.

There are other jobs than doctor. You can become a registered nurse with only a bachelor's ($100k+ salary). Engineering pays well. The trades pay well. What doesn't pay well is zero-effort required jobs like Starbucks barista or social media influencer (is this even a job?). If anyone can do it with no pain required to pass some sort of schooling then it's not going to pay well. Nursing pays well because people are t…

>You can become a registered nurse with only a bachelor's ($100k+ salary).

Where are you getting this number, that is not even remotely close to any of the nurses and lower level health practitioners I know

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always wondered that my fellow friends graduated from expensive Ivy Leagues, still have student debt and still not making more than me. Simply put? They were given a false bill of goods. We were all told that if we went to college, it would all sort itself out. Then the recession happened and all hell broke loose lol. (Half) jokes aside, the answer is a lot more complicated and I want to address more of your resp…

No worries, I appreciate the (would be) response! Definitely will be looking forward for it.

Greetings! As promised.

>if they have their criteria on what is acceptable pay, won't the natural course of things is to quit on the unacceptable job and just find a better paying jobs, which means business as usual...I was under the impression that the article seem to imply that Gen Z don't have the capability of choosing good jobs because of lack of good job market or marketable skills etc,

I'd argue that it isn't business as usual because Gen Z is leveraging this once-in-a-few-decades opportunity where employees have some power into "what can you do for me?" discussions with companies and it's working [1]. Gone are the days of "company loyalty," partially because without pensions there's no incentive to put anything on the line for company. At the end of the day, they're remembering the core reason why people work in the first place: To get paid. I don't produce video content for a company "for the team" or "because I love the culture," I do it because they pay me, and it just so happens I also respect the company and want to see it grow. But that second consideration will never - and should never - outweigh #1. Gen Z seems to be internalizing this lesson very well.

>I am actually confused on how people were able to get a house with an entry level job at all.

It's simple: they don't. That era ended decades ago in the US. As for your bit about bootstraps, Americans' belief in that took a nasty plunge during The Great Recession and has been under sharp scrutiny for the better part of a decade [2]. The rise of student loan debt is also a huge factor here, as more and more millennials are putting off the next stage of their lives, such as homeownership/marriage/kids/etc., to try and tackle their high five-figure and six-figure debt.

Want to know one of the biggest examples of this? Medicine. Some figures [3]

* [US] The average medical school debt is $215,900, excluding premedical undergraduate and other educational debt.

* The average medical school graduate owes $241,600 in total student loan debt.

* 76-89% of medical school graduates have educational debt.

* 43% of indebted medical school graduates have premedical educational debt.

* The average medical school graduate owes 6 times as much as the average college graduate.

* 55% of medical school students use loans specifically to help pay for medical school (as opposed to undergraduate or premed debt).

* Adjusted for inflation, average medical school debt is over 4x what it was in 1978. Almost double what it was in 1998.

Now sure, you can go "well they'll be doctors so they'll pay it off quickly." But you know who suffers here? Small, rural communities, and generally any area that has a small medical footprint [4]. I digress, but these issues have very far-reaching implications and impacts. People who owe $250,000 USD do not want to go work in a small community where they'll make pennies compared to elsewhere. The interest alone is crushing.

>Currently I don't have any debt and earn L4 FAANG level salary.

Congratulations, I sincerely mean that. Many millennials didn't clue in to the opportunities in coding until it was too late. Now yes, you can always do coding bootcamps or teach yourself, but not everyone can easily switch over to a job like that, and frankly in the 2010's that's where a lot of the opportunity to "pull yourself up" lay. People who are working for pennies often barely have the energy to cook for themselves, let alone teach themselves how to code.

>So, my natural response to the Gen Zs would be like, "Yes I agree, don't work for $7.25. But why go to expensive college and get 6 figure debts, why not go to a trade school? Doing what you love is nice, but market forces still exist, and no amount of regulations can change that. People buy what they need first. We can't force people to spend money on art yet, when they need engineering first"

You're right, and that's exactly what Gen Z is asking/saying! They are going, "Wow you millennials got rocked and the same way is paved for us. Screw that." Though I do have a pretty huge caveat about "forcing people to spend money on art," but that's a whole other discussion. Suffice to say arts and humanities deserve the same investment we give STEM. It's not about forcing people to pay for it, it's about supporting them and creating opportunity for art and culture. I don't see why that isn't a worthwhile investment.

[1] https://time.com/6143212/us-wage-growth-record-high/

[2] https://money.howstuffworks.com/bootstrap-myth-climbing-econ...

[3] https://educationdata.org/average-medical-school-debt

[4] https://www.medicaleconomics.com/view/dealing-shortage-rural...

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#460
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While housing has indeed gotten more expensive you can't compare absolute prices. Horseshit. Homes built in 1946 are selling for millions of dollars, even if they're going to be torn down and rebuilt for marginal cost. You're not buying a house, you're buying the land and taking responsibility for everything on it. And even then, the lumber you get out of such an old house is quite valuable virgin oldgrowth, a bett…

In 1946 that house was in the styx with bugger all facilities and infrastructure about it. Fast forward 76 years of development and that house is now in the center of a large city full of facilities and opportunity. To compare the 1946 houses location you need to pick something with the same level of amenity, which will be probably a country town.

The problem is that a cheaper house in the country no longer has jobs. Americans don't earn enough in average to afford to support local businesses, so every dollar made gets basically exported from the town to walmart or amazon.

That $150k house in the boonies, even if it was built yesterday, has less value, because the community it is in is in the process of dying and has no opportunity. That same house in the same town sold for $60k in 1989, while that very town was much more functional, alive, and happy than it is now.

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