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Gen Z does not dream of labor

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Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#241

Post by heavyset_go »

zdragnar wrote: post #146
skulk wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He could've been a plumber/electrician/welder who would do really well in the current market. False. A plumber making $80k (US median seems to be around $60k) isn't going to be able to save up for a down payment if they're paying a typical mid-sized city's rent (~$1.2k a month). Not to mention housing costs going up during this period of saving up.

Growing, but still rural city in the Midwest I visited a few weeks back has decent homes for sale in the 50-80k range. This is not an outlier. Roughly 2/3 of Americans own homes. If you live in an area where homes are priced like luxury investments, then yes, you'll have a hard time buying when you also cannot afford other luxuries. If you live in an area where they are not, it isn't unattainable at all, especially i…

The places I've seen with houses in the $50k to $80k range are in Rust Belt-esque areas whose time has long passed, or in places where a "career" means working at Walmart or cooking methamphetamine. Their economic prospects aren't that great, and their long term economic prospects are even worse.

Rural areas also tend not to be great places for LGBT people, either.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#242

Post by xur17 »

sologoub wrote: post #180
azinman2 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

135k is closer to 1% in the US than you’d think.

Not in the Bay Area, this is article from 2020 and even then $384k got you only in the top 10%. $105k was basically median. Source: https://amp.thecalifornian.com/amp/4625295002 The national percentile doesn’t really matter when your income is not portable, and you can’t just move and take it with you. As another post said, it’s doable on $135k but it’s not easy in the SF Bay Area.

> The national percentile doesn’t really matter when your income is not portable, and you can’t just move and take it with you.

With remote work, it's a lot more portable than you might think.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#243

Post by 1270018080 »

immigrantheart wrote: post #55

As an immigrant, no matter how many times the story about problems of work and wealth inequality and similar theme being brought up, I could never sympathize with it. I think I was raised in the time and place where working just doesn't ever get the luxuries of life. For example, working as a plumber and can afford 2 1/2 kids, a house and a car, that is always impossible. At least in my country. I think America is an…

Yeah, white American boomers had the easiest economic opportunity in human history for the reasons you stated. That time is now over. Millenials/Gen Z are jealous they never had the opportunity. Boomers and younger people who have been indoctrinated can't comprehend why the vast majority are struggling.

The post war capitalist system they enjoyed was a temporary anomaly. It isn't compatible with modern life, yet the system is still there. We need to end this gerontocracy and oligarchy.

The software engineering industry is a miniature example of what the boomers had. I am a software engineer, but I have the self awareness to know it's temporary and lucky. So many on HN don't.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#244

Post by syshum »

iso1210 wrote: post #233
syshum wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am late late GenX, and I have no higher education, own my car out right (late model pretty nice), I will pay off my home in the next 5 years, and I financially support one of my parents. I make less than 6 figures so I would not consider myself to be "rich" I think the key for me is the fact I choose not to incur educational debt getting a BS and/or MS, I also choose to live in a non-coastal region that does not ha…

> * To be clear this is just basic support like a stable roof over my head, Over the course of a few years that's well into 6 figures of support

I agree, but I struggled with the wording to covey that I did not come from a wealthy family with a trust fund or something like that

We are a "normal" midwest 2 parent household, in the 50th percentile of income band for the region.

My over arching point is there has to be some personal accountability. it is easy to be a victim, blame the system, blame rich people, blame everyone but yourself for your own circumstances.

Life is hard and often unfair, and I freely admit I am one serious illness away from bankruptcy, there are things we need to do change the system in many ways

However alot of the talk I see about "solutions" will in reality just make things worse and further push victim culture that i see today.

I don't have all the answer, but "woe is me, life is soo hard and unfair" attitude I see I can assure people is not a solution

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#245

Post by gruez »

boplicity wrote: post #226
stolenmerch wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand. When I bought a home I was literally making the US median income and bought an average priced house. My rent at the time was about a thousand a month. I had normal student loans and regular bills too. It wasn't easy but it didn't feel like a miracle either. Not saying someone making minimum can do this by any means, but there's a huge demand for labor in decent paying areas right now. I g…

The cost of a house has spiked to over 7x median income in the US, in a very short time. That's put buying a house out of reach for many people. Hopefully the bubble will burst -- but who knows? It could drag on for a very long time. Historically, the cost of a house has hovered around 4.5 to 5.5x annual median income. It's currently at the highest level it's ever been, at least according to this graph: https://www.l…

What about factoring in interest rates? After all, people ultimately care about the monthly payments than about the sticker price.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#246

Post by solenoidalslide »

zdragnar wrote: post #199
skulk wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should try to understand why certain kinds of people (of, perhaps the non-white kind) would not want to move into an insular community?

Maybe if they visited, they'd find their assumptions to be unwarranted racism. It isn't as diverse as some other parts of the country, but there's groups of people from all over the world. Within a 2 hour drive from me, you'll find enclaves from Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Mexico and others.

Do you have black or Hispanic friends or colleagues that you know near you? Have you asked them about their experiences with race where you live?

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#247

Post by jmrm »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #135
eulers_secret wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is part of why I left my job. I had the realization that my dream (homeownership/2 kids) was untenable with my income (~$135K TC) in my area. I could certainly get the credit for it, but my life would be one long hardship living under wage slavery, being house-poor, having little free time, paying exorbitantly to watch others raise my kids, and not having the opportunities I currently have... I kinda gave up on…

COL and everything, 135K is like the 1% in Spain. On topic: I have the same feeling. I'm trying to get a dev job, that would be a huge jump of income for me. But I'm 34, how much should I grind just to get "entry-level" stuff? I was pretty unmativated in my job, just coasting by and pretty much doing the bare minimum that allowed me to be in peace with myself. Remote work increased my productivity and my hapiness ove…

As far as I know, most people who do "FP II" (vocational training) in Spain usually stays in those companies which they were doing their internship, so there are job opportunities. Usually are those known as "cárnicas" (companies that are in a lot of boring projects and pays enough), like but at least you can have a couple years of experience before hopping into a better company.

I have not too much experience in that sector, but I would say earning 30k-50k is only possible if you live in a city with good communications with the bigger ones, like Alcalá de Henares (near to Madrid, or Manresa (near to Barcelona). In some places with lower COL, like Andalucía, this is really difficult.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#248

Post by watwut »

paulpauper wrote: post #171
burlesona wrote: post #14

> “My dad got a job straight out of high school, saved up, and bought a house in his 20s,” said Anne Dakota, a 21-year-old receptionist from Asheville, North Carolina, who earns minimum wage. “I don’t even think that’s possible for me, at least with the current money I make.” I think this is pretty much the whole story. It’s very hard to be motivated to work when you could save your entire adult life and still strugg…

I think today, there is much more variance compared to 50-70 years ago. Those who have high intelligence and 'drive' have much more opportunity for advancement and to become wealthy ,compared to smart people of 70 years ago. But, opportunities for people who are not so smart may be more limited. Nowadays, you got plenty of smart people making money with high-paying white collar professional jobs, right out of college…

I recall thatvstats say the opposite - social mobility went down. Smart people with drive had better chances to improve 50-70 years ago.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#249

Post by ellen364 »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #135
eulers_secret wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is part of why I left my job. I had the realization that my dream (homeownership/2 kids) was untenable with my income (~$135K TC) in my area. I could certainly get the credit for it, but my life would be one long hardship living under wage slavery, being house-poor, having little free time, paying exorbitantly to watch others raise my kids, and not having the opportunities I currently have... I kinda gave up on…

COL and everything, 135K is like the 1% in Spain. On topic: I have the same feeling. I'm trying to get a dev job, that would be a huge jump of income for me. But I'm 34, how much should I grind just to get "entry-level" stuff? I was pretty unmativated in my job, just coasting by and pretty much doing the bare minimum that allowed me to be in peace with myself. Remote work increased my productivity and my hapiness ove…

Don’t give up hope. Someone I mentored at a coding bootcamp just got a job as a junior software developer at age 33. It’s hard going but it works out for some people. If the career change would mean a lot more money for you, it might be worth it to keep trying.

Best of luck, whatever you decide.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#250

Post by ceeplusplus »

rtlfe wrote: post #220
ceeplusplus wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 80k your post-tax takehome is $5000/mo even filing single in a high tax state. Take out $400 for health insurance, $800 for car+insurance, $1200 for rent, and you've still got $2500 for food, miscellaneous spending, Roth IRA, etc. Even if all those costs come to $2000 - unlikely, since the Roth contribution limit is $6k / year - you're still left with $500/month in savings. And that's assuming your partner doesn't…

I hope this person never has a kid. Enjoy your rent doubling to get enough space and either losing your partner's income or spending $3k a month on day care. Plus whatever crappy insurance you're getting for $400 a month is going to leave with $10k+ in bills for just birthing the kid.

From Kaiser's 2020 survey on healthcare plans, the average worker contribution for HMO/PPO plans for a family was $5000-6000/yr [1]. These are not high deductible plans (those are specifically broken out) so they're going to be pretty good insurance, especially PPO. So $400/mo is only underestimating the true cost by about $100/mo. You can't use ACA marketplace prices to judge what your average worker is paying.

> spending $3k a month on day care

It costs $3200/mo to pay someone $20/h for 40 hours a week, in what world does day care (where one caretaker takes care of multiple children!) cost $3000/mo? The average cost of child care in California, which has _the_ highest cost of labor in the US, is $956/mo [2]. If you use the infant care cost it's $1400/mo, still nowhere near $3000. Maybe in the middle of New York City it costs $3000, but that's not a realistic living scenario for a plumber.

If your spouse makes $3000/mo then the rent increase (call it an extra $800/mo to get to $2k/mo) and childcare cost ($1000/mo) are more than covered by their extra income.

Please just look at the data and take a moment to understand what expenses outside of SF/NYC/LA look like.

[1]: https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs-2020-summary-of-find...

[2]: https://www.epi.org/child-care-costs-in-the-united-states/#/...

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