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Gen Z does not dream of labor

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Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#111
American boomers grew up in lot of privilege after winning world war 2. Now is a different time where the world is more competitive. A lot of jobs in manufacturing have gone to China, in the services sector to India. Dancing off on Tiktok and working at Starbucks won't give you a comfortable life like your parents had. So better start grinding those leetcode questions like the rest of the world does. American hegemony is all but over.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#112
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdote: I am Gen Z. This story holds true for my parents and I. My dad was a solider in Latin America, my mom, a nurse. Their job required, at most, 2 years of education beyond High School. I am a data analyst, with a Bachelor's and a Master's. I earn more than they both did together, adjusted for inflation. My friends are in "specialized jobs" as well -- some even being doctors and lawyers. We still have zero hope…

How much do you earn? Sorry if it’s rude, I’m genuinely just curious, I figured you’d make enough as a data analyst in any decent-COL living city to be fine

In the US many data analysis jobs are at tech companies, so they require living in expensive cities and competing with software engineers for homes, but pay only like 1/3-1/2 of what software engineers make.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#113
> American workers across various ages, industries, and income brackets have experienced heightened levels of fatigue, burnout, and general dissatisfaction toward their jobs since the pandemic’s start. The difference is, more young people are airing these indignations and jaded attitudes on the internet, often to viral acclaim.

I left Amazon after a 10+ year career.

I was encouraged to hire foreign nationals from specific countries, because their visa situation makes it harder for them to leave Amazon without having to leave the country.

When my own people were being let go for no reason at all, I was told not to interfere. I was directly mentored on disconnecting myself from individuals in my organization, because it would help me do what’s “right for Amazon”.

I sat in an off site with various leaders from the broader company. American workers just won’t work as hard, I was told. We need to expand our engineering pool to other markets, to cut costs and because those people have a lower standard of living and will work harder. I am quoting multiple Amazon L10s.

Those 10 years, I was miserable. I cut off from my family. My friends eventually stopped calling. I became more and more isolated. I put on excess body weight. My mental health suffered.

To be clear, I’m immensely privileged and left Amazon with a boatload of money and assets. In retrospect, I was part of a machine that exploited people. That’s where my money came from.

Gen Z needs to realize that being smart about this and simply “dreaming” isn’t enough. My former Amazon bosses are ready to replace Americans with workers on the global market. They have no empathy, and they openly view it as a weakness. It is LITERALLY a rat race.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#114

> “My dad got a job straight out of high school, saved up, and bought a house in his 20s,” said Anne Dakota, a 21-year-old receptionist from Asheville, North Carolina, who earns minimum wage. “I don’t even think that’s possible for me, at least with the current money I make.” I think this is pretty much the whole story. It’s very hard to be motivated to work when you could save your entire adult life and still strugg…

> Why be miserable grinding for two decades just so you can get one hand on the ladder?

Simply put, because the alternative is worse. What is your BANTA? Living in destitution? You don't have to go extreme into the "enjoy life now" end either; it's a balance.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#115

> “I don’t have goals. I don’t have ambition. I only want to be attractive.” This apathetic declaration is the start of a TikTok rant that went viral for its blatant message: to reject hard work and indulge in leisure. It’s weird to see these opinions presented as a new phenomenon. Wanting to avoid work and indulge in leisure is a tale as old as time. It’s even a common theme among characters in ancient writings. Wha…

I think you're on to something, but there is one thing that I question:

> As far as I can tell, the difference was that by the time they reached mid 20s they were quickly running out of peers who would tell them it was a good idea to embrace such a lifestyle forever. The real world catches up and you notice that your real-world friends who work normal jobs and “settle down” are actually having a good time (on average) while the vagabonding lifestyle gets progressively less glamorous as you get older.

ARE the people working normal jobs and settling down having a good time?

Interestingly, my sister and I, who now live together, took very different paths in our 20s and therefore ended up with different social circles. I was more of the studious, behave, responsible sort and so most of my friends/network is as well. My sister was a party girl (lots of raves, drugs, etc. - very much the vagabonding type of lifestyle).

Now we're in our 30s and while my friends might have slightly nicer apartments, their situations aren't that different.

My proper middle-class friends can't afford houses, can't afford kids (or they have to give up their career/take a huge standard of living cut), can't afford healthcare, are buried under student loans, and can't save enough for retirement.

My sister's vagabonding friends can't afford houses, can't afford kids, can't afford healthcare, and can't save for retirement, but at least they got to have some fun.

I'd say that the reward for behaving is much less than it used to be.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#116

Tech is an exception to the rule, I've told friends it's tech or die tongue in cheek. Most of my friends aren't in tech, and all of them are convinced they will never own a home or get ahead in life, and so find it unwise to start a family, so might as well live it up now as there is no social safety net and most of them don't have employer insurance. A lot of jobs will hire hourly and cap the worker at 34-39 hours a…

Where you do live? in the US 30 hours is the minimum. I hope they know their local law

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#117
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I quite like being a programmer. This job is truly an anomaly. There are very few careers where you can earn top 1% income with no degree, no physical exertion, under 8 hours a day "on the clock", the freedom to quit any time and have multiple new offers within days, etc, etc.

That’s the thing. I know this sounds glib, but the barrier to entry is so low ($20 5th hand laptop will do just fine to do first-steps development), I can’t understand why the market isn’t flooded with coders. So many people say “oh I could never do what you do”, and I’m like “I’m a shaved ape who wanted to play computer games and accidentally ended up learning stuff, you absolutely can”. Then they just go on saying…

> I can’t understand why the market isn’t flooded with coders

I was able to excel at CS in college because my parents shoved a DOS computer in front of me when I was 5 and challenged me with math and general problem solving at every opportunity. My whole childhood was basically debugging and critical thinking. If you didn't have that growing up, it's really hard to start learning the skills when you're 30.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#118

As an immigrant, no matter how many times the story about problems of work and wealth inequality and similar theme being brought up, I could never sympathize with it. I think I was raised in the time and place where working just doesn't ever get the luxuries of life. For example, working as a plumber and can afford 2 1/2 kids, a house and a car, that is always impossible. At least in my country. I think America is an…

We will never make progress if everybody adopts this defeatist attitude.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#119
post #38

As a Gen Z it's not that our entire generation is lazy it's that we've seen our parents give their entire lives to a company or industry just counting down the years to retirement. That personally is my worst case scenario for my career. Sure some people my age just want to be famous and not do any hard work, but I'd say the majority just don't want to be a "good employee" for 40 years just increasing the number ever…

If all of this is true, then I am with you guys. Don't give up your _one and only_ life to make someone else richer.

Given the stories I've heard, and things I've myself seen, I'm not convinced it is true — not for _most_ millennials. I do hope I'm wrong though.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#120

It's a bit of a perfect storm. You have the rampant wealth inequality and abusive practices that came from decoupling worker productivity from worker compensation beginning in the 1970s with demography. 2022 is average year of retirement for the baby boomers, the largest generation. For at least the next two or three decades labor is only going to get more expensive.

It's harder to maintain the illusion of possible upward mobility.

Let's look at a typical scenario. You graduate from university with 100k in student loans. Let's say you get a fairly decently paid entry-level job paying 75k. Great, you might be able to pay down those loans in 10 years, if not more. And when you're finally ready to buy a house, the ones that haven't been converted to rentals are all costing 8 or 10 times your annual salary. So you're asking someone at 21 to hope that everything works out and they might get the American Dream in their late 30s. Assuming there's no intervening major crises.

Sure, there might be ways to slightly goose things, but they turn into terrible-quality-of-life stuff like "work 3 jobs", "live on rice and beans forever", or "constantly job-hop to seek out a higher salary." If these are your alternatives, maybe it doesn't seem so absurd to embrace stagnation.

I'm in my early 40s. I did everything "right" -- I got a full-ride to university, studied CS, and acquired 15 years experience. I work for a mid-sized fintech firm and draw just over 100k. It's full remote since long before Covid, I generally work about 40-42 hours a week, and the technology is both interesting and feels actually important. I still don't feel like buying a new house is affordable on my budget. (Here's where you say "I should have been job-hopping every two years and making 400k at a FAANG by now/chasing an exit at some kale-as-a-service startup").

My parents were able to buy a house in 1988 for about 4x their annual salary, where the "salary" came from a modest skilled-trade worker. If I were to buy a comparable house in the same basic middle-class suburb, I'm looking at 6x my salary. I'm lucky in that I can live with them, pay down their mortgage, and be able to live reasonably well. But I sure as hell don't feel light years better off than my parents were at 40.

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