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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#101

Post by dijit »

endisneigh wrote: post #49
gumby wrote: post #19

It’s interesting to read these (plausible, far from absurd) analyses from the Anglosphere when we have an alternative to compare, to whit the northern European democracies where marriage is in steep decline across all social classes yet the societies are more successful (at least if your metrics are things like poverty rates, lifetimes, nutrition, stress, etc).

Curious to see the source showing European democracies are more successful, controlling for socioeconomic status.

It all depends on what you’re aiming for, socio-economically.

If you want billionaires then the US model is much more successful.

If you want a wide middle class then the Swedish model is more successful.

If you want happiness then the Danish model is more successful.

If you want to eliminate poverty then the Finnish model is more successful.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#102

Post by dmschulman »

I'm confused by their introduction. The author cites changes in family structure in two specific neighborhoods (Fishtown in Philadelphia and Belmont in Massachusetts) but uses this data point to imply an unsubstantiated national trend. And all the while overlooking any other reasons why the presence of fathers declined in one white community after the 1960s.

Henderson suffers from the same research bias as Charles Murray, the author of the cited study. I don't disagree with Henderson's conclusion in general, but the journey from A to B is inconsistent as Fishtown and Philadelphia (the poorest city in America) as a whole are substantial case studies on deindustrialization and the impact those lost jobs have on a once thriving community.

This deindustrialization is also partially responsible for the increase in drug use and drug activity in Fishtown during this time of unprecedented job loss. Fishtown used to be the opioid capital of the country in the 1970s. This activity has since been pushed into the adjacent neighborhood of Kensington [1].

The impact of deindustrialization and the loss of good paying factory/union jobs has more to do with the breakdown of the family unit in the last 70 years than any of the other idea Henderson cites.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/magazine/kensington-heroi...

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#103

Post by rayiner »

Helitioo wrote: post #7
rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

> How do they undermine the norm? They don't do this on purpose they are also just humans.

I don’t think they do this on purpose; I think they’re well meaning and don’t “want to judge.” The problem is that social judgement is what creates signals for what’s good and bad and what’s worthy and unworthy; what has value and what doesn’t. And people respond to signals.

Imagine that you’re just an average dude growing up in the middle of nowhere. College isn’t in the cards for you—you’re not cut out to be a Facebook engineer. But the local canning plant needs people to work. Do you think social signals don’t affect what choices you make?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#104

Post by InTheArena »

michaelt wrote: post #76
Helitioo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

> How do they undermine the norm? They don't do this on purpose they are also just humans. I read a book [1] that argued the upper middle class follows very traditional values (two-parent families, marrying before having children, having at least one adult working 40 hours a week) but doesn't really advocate for those traditional values. People in the upper middle class will praise the bravery of single mothers and s…

There is a stigma in pushing stable values. In a very real sense, it’s created by a media environment that eschews non-progressive (it’s not liberal - at least in the USA) family structures.

Let’s face it, Homer Simpson is the face of traditional American family structures.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#105

Post by IggleSniggle »

gryson wrote: post #40
alwayslikethis wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is also in part (in addition to the immigration) because the US overall is a pretty happy country, compared to places like Korea or Japan. It is still possible to afford to have children, though increasingly difficult.

A "happy country"? I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. In terms of the cost of having children, though, it is far more affordable in Japan than the US. Almost all childbirth costs are covered by the government, and free nursery school is also provided to all.

I assumed they were referring to something like the Happiness Index to arrive at this comment.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-...

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#106

Post by mediumiqsad »

poszlem wrote: post #17

Rob Henderson also coined the term "luxury beliefs" which is one of the most apt name for something we've been witnessing lately ("defund the police" or "healthy at every size" or "marriage is just an oppressive institution of the patriarchy"). I highly recommend that other essay too https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

Rob went to Yale.

He's literally a luxury columnist.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#107

Post by throwaway0a5e »

t0suj4 wrote: post #95
Helitioo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

From what I've heard the problem are divorce courts granting women nearly everything. That rigs the game against dads. Marriage is a huge liability. Men are gambling with nearly all their lives on their partner's unwillingness into a divorce. On the other hand I've heard rumors where therapists were suggesting divorce to married women. I don't know how widespread that is but maybe something worth looking into.

>I don't know how widespread that is

There's a proverb about apples that seems relevant.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#108

Post by karpierz »

d23 wrote: post #44

Do people find this stuff compelling? Rank speculation and confident assertion with minimal substantive backing? I’d find this statement equally compelling (which is to say, not at all): > Since we stopped using horses as a primary means of transportation, men’s sense of self worth has diminished. Riding a horse carried a lot of high status connotations: drive, masculinity, towering above the land, and man’s dominati…

It's very compelling when it lines up with my worldview in a way that makes me feel validated. Then I can absorb it uncritically and regurgitate the conclusions to people without thinking about the evidence that lead me to the conclusions.

Unfortunately, I'm not a WASP so your 'horse theory' doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#109

Post by AvocadoPanic »

cebert wrote: post #71
gryson wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has a low (and falling) birthrate. Not quite as low as South Korea, but certainly not high by any means.

The US is likely fine because our southern border is porous and anyone can walk right in. I don’t see any indication that this will change. The benefit is even if the US birth rate is declining, we have an influx of younger individuals who can help keep the economy going.

Except that the US will look and operate more and more like wherever these people came from.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#110

Post by ss108 »

t0suj4 wrote: post #95
Helitioo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

From what I've heard the problem are divorce courts granting women nearly everything. That rigs the game against dads. Marriage is a huge liability. Men are gambling with nearly all their lives on their partner's unwillingness into a divorce. On the other hand I've heard rumors where therapists were suggesting divorce to married women. I don't know how widespread that is but maybe something worth looking into.

Plenty of much more sophisticated and educated men continue to get married despite that, but you're suggesting that these less educated and knowledgeable men are incentivized by modern family law?
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