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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#91
post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

Maybe for those men lucky enough to have families. A growing issue is the large percentage of men who do not and will likely never have families to ever take care of. If we think deadbeat dads unstable, the incel community is a madhouse.

Much like radical identity politicking Twitter users, the cultural impact and attention-getting of "incels" far exceeds their actual frequency in the population, and is frequently magnified for the purposes of scaremongering. It's not rare for radfems to cry "incel" whenever someone has a complaint about the new libertinism, just as it isn't rare for #metoo opponents to complain about "cancel culture" when someone gets in trouble for committing an actual crime.

The vast majority of people have more quotidian difficulties. The fact that liberal tabloids and influencers are eager to refer to rich and famous men as "incels" when they obviously can't be reveals that the word is just an insult in many cases, not a product of a serious analysis of society.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#92
post #36
post #19

It’s interesting to read these (plausible, far from absurd) analyses from the Anglosphere when we have an alternative to compare, to whit the northern European democracies where marriage is in steep decline across all social classes yet the societies are more successful (at least if your metrics are things like poverty rates, lifetimes, nutrition, stress, etc).

US thinkers have no idea what a social safety net is so they draw their conclusions without taking that option into account.

"US thinkers" is a ridiculously broad term. There are plenty of Americans who think and know what a social safety net is. Some of them know about it because they read, some because they think, some because they've travelled, some because they've lived in countries with a stronger social safety net than the USA. What is true in the USA is that there are people who know what a social safety net is and are adamant that we should not have one, and who are willing to get much closer to actually say that than most of their equivalents in Europe (though this has been changing a bit in recent years).

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#93
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incels are a part, not all of that group. But they are a percentage. A greater number of perpetually single men, those who do in fact want a family as opposed to thise who chose not to have one, does mean a greater number of radical incels. Even without going full radical incel, a great many single males lose hope and lose thier drive to achieve. I work with some. They just dont care about work/money/stability/future…

I'm curios if there is a female equivalent of a radical incel?

It's actually how the term was originally coined - the first person to identify as an incel was a woman. Perhaps without the "radical" adjective, though.

As a brother of two sisters I would say that (unsurprisingly) the proportion of incels is the same in both sexes, they just express it differently. Women incels are not nearly as visible, but they're there.

One thing they do have in common though is a tendency to get fixated on someone/something, so they're over represented in IT.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#94
post #32

A counter is that other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, ...) that enforce traditional values have had a collapse in the birth rate. Having children out of wedlock is a safety valve for broken institutions that keeps the birth rate higher in the US than comparable countries; that plus relatively open integration helps us maintain our economy, welfare state, pensions, etc. If we turned the screws on women and men to di…

What about married couples that decide not to have children ? The truth is it’s hard, and if the community does not support families then you have less children. Think about both parents working full time + and barely having enough to provide from a material standpoint, let along emotional and education. Point is parenting is hard and life today makes it harder. I don’t believe wedlock is a deciding reason for people…

We rearranged our life from DINK to SIWK for this reason.

If I'm paying for childcare the expenses often increase linearly with the number of children, with my wife caring for our children we were able to double the number of children while substantially reducing costs.

We are no longer jetting to Alps for skiing, and we've not had a night out without the kids in 9 years but we've different priorities now.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#95
post #7
post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

From what I've heard the problem are divorce courts granting women nearly everything. That rigs the game against dads.

Marriage is a huge liability. Men are gambling with nearly all their lives on their partner's unwillingness into a divorce.

On the other hand I've heard rumors where therapists were suggesting divorce to married women. I don't know how widespread that is but maybe something worth looking into.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#96

What happened? The article makes some fantastic and insightful points but one thing it ignores that I think is important is the fact we started paying people not to get married in the form of increased public benefits for single parents.

You mean that single parent would be better to stay with their abusive spouse because they depend on them financially?

How’s that better?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#97
post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

"This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability."

As someone both from a somewhat conservative immigrant background who is basically a coastal elite type myself, I think that statement is not particularly accurate or insightful. My main point of contention is that low-income whites tend not to care for what the highly-educated and affluent think anyways. Absurd to blame the "educated and affluent" for lower-class abandonment of their own cultural values.

"Social change has swept through America so thoroughly that the head of the “conservative” party is a three-times-divorced man of little character. But that illustrates my point."

I think that has more to do with hypocrisy and is symptomatic of deeper cultural and moral problems erupting among "conservatives" both rich and poor.

"It’s the rest of America that most needs a supportive culture that tells men that by getting a job, any job, and supporting their family, they can attain a measure of that same dignity."

These cultural groups can have that with or without the help of "elites". Again, they don't like elites. The article cites some anecdote about a UN meeting--these people tend to not even want the UN to exist. They don't know about the UN does, nor do they really care. No outcome of that meeting would sway their behavior.

Ultimately, the issue isn't that somehow the culture of "[t]hose who sit at or near the apex of the social ladder" is failing these people. These people have failed themselves, some might argue in part precisely because they would rather NOT mimic what the people are the apex of the social ladder do. These people of course love to place the blame elsewhere, particularly on immigrants, but ultimately their culture has become degraded and their moral fabric destroyed from the inside.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#98
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

> We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. So we need to find a reason that you agree with. Not a better reason.

I can have different reasons why I don't believe in it.

It's not that the article delivered any proof.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#99
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe for those men lucky enough to have families. A growing issue is the large percentage of men who do not and will likely never have families to ever take care of. If we think deadbeat dads unstable, the incel community is a madhouse.

incels commit almost no violence against women compared to men in relationships

A large supply of men who DGAF and don't have much holding them down is how you get really serious social instability.

They might not be beating their wives but let it roll unchecked for 20yr and it gets bad.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#100
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

> How do they undermine the norm? They don't do this on purpose they are also just humans. I read a book [1] that argued the upper middle class follows very traditional values (two-parent families, marrying before having children, having at least one adult working 40 hours a week) but doesn't really advocate for those traditional values. People in the upper middle class will praise the bravery of single mothers and s…

Probably because single motherhood is generally not a choice made willingly.

There isn't any hypocrisy here, they don't endorse single motherhood because it's fashionable they "endorse" it because the alternative is worse.

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