A counter is that other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, ...) that enforce traditional values have had a collapse in the birth rate. Having children out of wedlock is a safety valve for broken institutions that keeps the birth rate higher in the US than comparable countries; that plus relatively open integration helps us maintain our economy, welfare state, pensions, etc. If we turned the screws on women and men to di…
The US has a low (and falling) birthrate. Not quite as low as South Korea, but certainly not high by any means.
No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
71–80 of 1001 posts
Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
#72The 1960s version of this story instead ends with the husband beating his wife behind closed doors without repercussions.
Which is preferable?
Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
#73For example:
> Those who sit at or near the apex of the social ladder (who decide what behaviors are prestigious) have decided that family stability is unimportant.
The author proceeds to quote an anecdote from a UN conference to supposedly back up this point.
In reality, what is actually going on here has nothing to do with "elites" at all. There is a political ideology (to which I suspect the author at least somewhat subscribes) that puts a high priority on self-reliance, "pulling oneself up by one's own bootstraps" and an avoidance of state intervention in the lives of individuals. There is another political ideology which acknowledges that we all benefit when society offers support and assistance to people in need of help, in part because none of us really know when or if we may find ourselves experiencing bad luck or bad judgement or both.
The latter political ideology wants to try to help and nurture everyone to whatever extent possible, to avoid judgement on the decisions/mistakes that people make and focus on how to get them back on their feet and how to minimize the social cost of those mistakes.
The former ideology opposes these efforts, and uses the tools of both the law and of funding choices to try to limit the extent and availability of a social safety net, in the belief it is an overall negative influence on society and the individuals that comprise it.
So when people who believe in the social safety net try to avoid condemning single parent families, what they are actually saying is not "family stability is unimportant". They are saying "we know that relationships sometimes, even often, do not work out, and we think that as a society we should provide as much support as we can so that the children and parents in such situations suffer the least harm possible."
They are met with responses like Rob Henderson's, that mischaracterize their concern and empathy, and with responses from legislatures that essentially say "We're not spending our money to support poor people who make bad choices, they should get their act together and hold themselves to higher behavioral standards."
I'm not taking a position here on whether either of these views is the correct one. But I do get tied of people like Henderson trying to fold fundamentally different conceptions about the role of government into some snide dig at "elites". There plenty of wealthy highly educated people in positions of economic, political and cultural power who both insist on the value of family stability AND refuse to provide meaningful support in cases where it isn't happening. Those people are "elites" too, just as much as people who suggest we should be more understanding and forgiving of these failures. Instead of taking cheap, meaningless shots in a useless culture war, it would be better to cogently lay out a rational basis for why your preferred political ideology is better for society overall, given the criticisms that already exist of its real world effects.
Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
#74This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…
Maybe for those men lucky enough to have families. A growing issue is the large percentage of men who do not and will likely never have families to ever take care of. If we think deadbeat dads unstable, the incel community is a madhouse.
I don’t think it’s fair to call all these guys incels. As the article observes, most just have no expectations placed on them, and also have no way of attaining dignity and social worth through the avenues in life reasonably available to them.
Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...
Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.
Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
#76This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…
We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…
I read a book [1] that argued the upper middle class follows very traditional values (two-parent families, marrying before having children, having at least one adult working 40 hours a week) but doesn't really advocate for those traditional values.
People in the upper middle class will praise the bravery of single mothers and say there's nothing to be ashamed of - but when it comes time to have children of their own, rarely choose that for themselves.
It's not entirely hypocritical, of course; just because I think gays have nothing to be ashamed of, doesn't mean I have to become gay myself!
Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
#77Do people find this stuff compelling? Rank speculation and confident assertion with minimal substantive backing? I’d find this statement equally compelling (which is to say, not at all): > Since we stopped using horses as a primary means of transportation, men’s sense of self worth has diminished. Riding a horse carried a lot of high status connotations: drive, masculinity, towering above the land, and man’s dominati…
Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
#78This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…
Maybe for those men lucky enough to have families. A growing issue is the large percentage of men who do not and will likely never have families to ever take care of. If we think deadbeat dads unstable, the incel community is a madhouse.
Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
#79Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...
Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.
If this hypothesis is right, then the problems of these communities are more tractable.