Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Which sure sounds to me like "employers try to fill low-status, low-pay, often-crappy female-dominated jobs with yet more females". That reflects an outmoded view of the labor market. These are good jobs for people who lack a college degree. Lots of the women in my wife's family have similar jobs. It's not like their brothers-- i.e. men from similar educational and class backgrounds--are becoming doctors instead of…
Yes, to a degree. But there are quite a few male-dominated fields with similar career prospects - semi-skilled building trades, road construction, sanitation work, truck driver, etc., etc. And there are often male niches within the female-dominated jobs - for adult patients who may be infirm, any decent-sized health facility will need some larger & more muscular workers (very likely male) on every nursing shift.
Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
581–590 of 666 posts
Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
#582Earlier quoted context omitted.
Viewpoint diversity is very, very important. But for a large contingent of the workforce, their viewpoints are already represented in the numerous implicit and ideological supports that our society has developed, without them even needing to be present: this is called "hegemony". If you do not acknowledge this is the case, then DEI efforts can seem very unfair. But one should be careful not to allow emotions and sens…
This seems like a well articulated case that you're making, though I'd like to argue from the opposite perspective for a bit. > If you do not acknowledge this is the case, then DEI efforts can seem very unfair. This is a non-trivial objection. I struggle to think of many acceptable scenarios in which we have to choose between acknowledging something which we don't believe as true, or living in an unfair system. Likew…
No field needs to be more appealing to any audience than it already is. Software does not need to have more women or black people in it; that has nothing to do with software. Basketball doesn't need more Asians; teaching doesn't need more men; chess doesn't need more women; the entire concept of a group needing more of something else, as though every group must be diverse, as though cultures and genders have no inherent preferences at all, is strange and absurd. The goals of DEI are useless, and any policy made to actively reach those goals is a waste of time and resources, at best.
Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
#583Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was willing to listen to your point (that perhaps some companies favor women and so women disproportionately percolate to those companies… at least in theory seems like a possible argument, even if I’m skeptical) until you got here: >> Also, because the intelligence distribution skews more male at the higher end, a company will be disproportionately male simply by being more technical and having a more difficult hi…
>Women used to be dominant in computing. Literally were the computers This is pathetic cope and completely misleading. The "programming" of that time had almost nothing to do with the modern practice. These "computer" roles were for number crunching, not software development. You're bending over backwards to deny the fact that men and women are biologically predisposed to certain interests. Why? Is it some weird sort…
Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
#584Earlier quoted context omitted.
Viewpoint diversity is very, very important. But for a large contingent of the workforce, their viewpoints are already represented in the numerous implicit and ideological supports that our society has developed, without them even needing to be present: this is called "hegemony". If you do not acknowledge this is the case, then DEI efforts can seem very unfair. But one should be careful not to allow emotions and sens…
This seems like a well articulated case that you're making, though I'd like to argue from the opposite perspective for a bit. > If you do not acknowledge this is the case, then DEI efforts can seem very unfair. This is a non-trivial objection. I struggle to think of many acceptable scenarios in which we have to choose between acknowledging something which we don't believe as true, or living in an unfair system. Likew…
That's fair, but then, baby goes out with the bathwater when people come onto public fora to discuss in less precise ways than you have stated here.
> There is a cost of the efforts to bring in those perspectives if they mean that I lose a job that I would otherwise have gained.
This is an individualized cost, which does not bear the externalities which exist on the society as a whole. On a societal scale, there is significant and obvious opportunity cost to excluding people from the workplace in systematic ways. It is, in a word, selfish.
> Moreover, an even bigger concern is that these decisions aren't being made based on perspective, but only on immutable identity
This is where the pathologies ossify, and I agree we should address this issue to make the endeavor even better. In any other setting, though, we would not collectively conclude to dissolve the initiative entirely because of this. This may be why discussions (debates) on the matter go so poorly: critics use language which suggests they want to do away with the matter entirely, while advocates are fighting back only against that proposed solution and not against what you have identified as a deeper (and definitely fixable!) problem. If conversations were to start there, and SOPs set up to encourage outcomes that do not have that quality, we could get a lot more done. I acknowledge that there are some who would exclude white voices based on whiteness alone -- every movement has that element -- so conversations may be non-starters in certain situations. But there's clearly a lot of hurt and trauma on both sides and the way we come together to discuss it looks basically exactly like how DEI advocates suggest anyway, so you're only hurting the cause if you decide to exclude yourself from these conversations when they are available to you.
One last point about the unfairness: there is a distinct tension in the collective mind between considering outcomes from individual vs societal perspectives. We love to hear about rising tides but hate to hear about one person getting unfair benefits. But that's just a matter of statistics, fortunately or otherwise! Do we want more equity, or do we want such a strict ranking of individuals that social mobility is made impossible? Individuals may have bad outcomes because random things happen, individuals may have good outcomes because random things happen, and there are always people moving up and down the ladder. Just because you can point at a single person who got advantaged one time does not mean it's not happening elsewhere, all the time, and it seems really immature to direct vitriol at individuals when we are only really concerned with aggregate quantities.
Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
#585Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
#586Earlier quoted context omitted.
> is to elevat[e] the white voice too Elevate?? We are not assigning authority to the white voice, we are assigning hegemony. It is a material fact that whiteness and maleness are the centers of Western philosophy, and everything else is measured based on deviance from that perceived center. There are by now centuries of literature on the matter. > if they happen to not fit into the agenda of the DEI group What you c…
Whiteness and maleness are not and cannot be material facts and it is a category error to insist otherwise, nevermind elevating them as the axiomatic center of your worldview.
Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
#587Earlier quoted context omitted.
This seems like a well articulated case that you're making, though I'd like to argue from the opposite perspective for a bit. > If you do not acknowledge this is the case, then DEI efforts can seem very unfair. This is a non-trivial objection. I struggle to think of many acceptable scenarios in which we have to choose between acknowledging something which we don't believe as true, or living in an unfair system. Likew…
You know people like that; they just don't say it because it's career suicide. I am opposed to the goal, in principle, of seeking a diverse team. One, it has not been proven or even shown somewhat that a diverse team is more successful. Two, it has been more than proven through human history that people get along better with people culturally similar to them. How can we simultaneously hold the belief that massively s…
This is just a wildly baseless assertion on the scale of disinformation, not even misinformation. It's not worth the time to go into the rest of this comment but the quote above summarizes it well.
Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
#588Earlier quoted context omitted.
You know people like that; they just don't say it because it's career suicide. I am opposed to the goal, in principle, of seeking a diverse team. One, it has not been proven or even shown somewhat that a diverse team is more successful. Two, it has been more than proven through human history that people get along better with people culturally similar to them. How can we simultaneously hold the belief that massively s…
> One, it has not been proven or even shown somewhat that a diverse team is more successful. This is just a wildly baseless assertion on the scale of disinformation, not even misinformation. It's not worth the time to go into the rest of this comment but the quote above summarizes it well.
Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
#589Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Women used to be dominant in computing. Literally were the computers This is pathetic cope and completely misleading. The "programming" of that time had almost nothing to do with the modern practice. These "computer" roles were for number crunching, not software development. You're bending over backwards to deny the fact that men and women are biologically predisposed to certain interests. Why? Is it some weird sort…
Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night, but I agree with the other poster that EVEN IF you think the male/female curve distribution thing is completely correct without caveats, you just don’t have to be massively intelligent to do software development. You’re building a corporate SAP system, not proving some theorem or unifying the fundamental forces or something.
>You’re building a corporate SAP system, not proving some theorem or unifying the fundamental forces or something.
And regardless of what you're building, you want the most competent employees that you can get for the lowest price if you are operating within a meritocracy. In that case your demographics will be strongly influenced by the distribution of competence, before even considering that the pipeline is skewed because women are simply not choosing to pursue software development - and that's not a problem that needs correcting unless you're playing tribalist team sports.
The anti-tribalists are using mere accusations of tribalism to justify their own vicious, exclusionary tribalism, and simply not allowing for discussion of alternative explanations which could appear to be motivated by tribalism. That's what keeps me up at night.
Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations
#590Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whiteness and maleness are not and cannot be material facts and it is a category error to insist otherwise, nevermind elevating them as the axiomatic center of your worldview.
The inequity resulting from the material consequences of appearing in, being raised in, and interacting with society as white and male is a well-established statistical fact.
And more centrally, whiteness (in particular) and maleness are still not facts. You're in voodoo territory if you center them as such.