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A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

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Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#521

Post by brigandish »

smt88 wrote: post #488
brigandish wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an argument for a speedier judicial process, not allowing a lack of employment protection to act like a non-judicial punitive action (that then also likely hinders the actual defence within the justice system). > I'm glad to live in the US where I can fire someone I know has committed a crime. It is possible to know things before the criminal justice system decides they are true. That's the opposite of what th…

> That's the opposite of what the constitution sets out to provide. The Constitution does not include "accused criminals" as a protected class. Please point to the exact section of the Constitution that includes them. I'm going to be charitable and assume you meant that presumption of innocence is in the Constitution, which it actually isn't[1]. As set forth elsewhere and respected in the US, presumption of innocence…

> I'm going to be charitable

Should've started and ended with that and I might've believed you, but

> This is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard.

It seems fitting to place those quotes next to each other.

To your charitable assumptions and questions:

> The Constitution does not include "accused criminals" as a protected class. Please point to the exact section of the Constitution that includes them.

As you wish. The 5th and 14th amendments[1] provide a right to due process. The "protected class" you're looking for is “All persons within the territory of the United States are entitled to its protection, including corporations, aliens, and presumptively citizens seeking readmission to the United States”.

> if I witness someone committing a crime and decide to fire them, should the government force me to wait until they are convicted of the crime?

No, and I certainly wasn't suggesting that. Was anyone? I made sure to put the most important objection in the very first line of my response:

> That's an argument for a speedier judicial process

and I continued with its de facto opposite, the one that you appeared and appear eager to support:

> allowing a lack of employment protection to act like a non-judicial punitive action

because you were arguing this:

> If they're paid while the justice is being worked out and their trial takes years, that is potentially a burden that the employer can't bear.

They're turning up to work, right? The employer could bear it the day before their arrest so they can the day after.

> Also, you're describing a situation where bad behavior becomes a protected class as soon as you get arrested for it.

Your strange fantasy about being able to fire a rapist that you know did it when you were surely also the one that hired this reprobate is at once amusingly ironic and the setup for one of the worst straw man arguments I think I'll have the misfortune to witness for a good long while.

[1] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5_4_1/

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#523

Post by Claude_Shannon »

asdff wrote: post #258
Claude_Shannon wrote: post #62

Meanwhile my parents went into meltdown whenever I wanted to go for even a walk. When I was 19.

Once in high school I was at a friends house in a subdivision that didn't even have sidewalks. We wanted to go out for a walk but the dad gave us a warning that the neighbors would probably call the police because people don't ever walk in this neighborhood.

I'm in Poland, so that wouldn't be an issue.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#524

Post by LorenPechtel »

vollmond wrote: post #194
beej71 wrote: post #47

I don't have any kids, so I don't really feel comfortable telling folks how to raise theirs. But I will tell you my perspective. As someone who grew up in the "be back home in time for supper" 1970s, today's world seems completely foreign. When I started kindergarten, Mom walked me to school on the first day so that I'd know the route. And after that I walked to school on my own until I learned to ride a bike. I rode…

We have a 5yo and 8yo. Most of the time, the question for whether they can handle something is less "are they capable?" and more "will someone call CPS?"

Yeah. I'm thinking back to the early 70s. I was IIRC 7, trusted to handle major streets safely on my own, trusted to take the city bus safely on my own. (Although getting the bus to stop so I could get on was problematic! Typically I went to the bus stop with someone, but I would not be met on the other end.) Back then it was notable, now it would be a CPS call.

Even around 1980 an incident comes to mind--like 3am, walking down the street with a backpack on. The idea of getting my father up to take me to the rendezvous for the backpack trip didn't even occur to me. Now, what would happen? (I was IIRC 15 at the time.)

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#525

Post by dataexporter »

lb1lf wrote: post #139
Loughla wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to that - the way we do sports and extracurricular activities is absolutely mind blowingly different now, too. Back in my day, neighborhood kids played baseball and football and basketball together as they could. Now everything is structured and scheduled. There are travel teams for kindergartners. There is a coaching structure for 5 year olds. Kids play for competition, winning, and opportunity, not just for…

There are exceptions, though. I wound up being a track and field coach for kids aged 6-9 in the local athletic union. Much to my surprise and delight, the culture from the national association and down is that kids this young will NOT compete in the traditional sense - sure, they may join local games, but the results will not be published in ranked order, and everybody gets a medal. During training, coaches are encou…

Isn't competition with oneself also detrimental at that age? It puts them under the pressure of constant improvement from their previous best. Shouldn't the process be just letting them build a habit/system and enjoy the process rather than focusing on personal records?

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#526

Post by dataexporter »

r3trohack3r wrote: post #268
beej71 wrote: post #47

I don't have any kids, so I don't really feel comfortable telling folks how to raise theirs. But I will tell you my perspective. As someone who grew up in the "be back home in time for supper" 1970s, today's world seems completely foreign. When I started kindergarten, Mom walked me to school on the first day so that I'd know the route. And after that I walked to school on my own until I learned to ride a bike. I rode…

Agree this is mostly dead in America. It's one of the reasons my family settled down where we did. Phoenix Arizona has many master planned communities designed around this lifestyle. Our neighborhood has an "interior" grassy/park like section with trails that wind and twist for 22 miles connecting all of the streets. In the center of that is our local school. Most houses are within two blocks of an entrance to the tr…

Which community is it in Phoenix?

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#527

Post by dataexporter »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #503
NikolaNovak wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>if you're raising kids, to consider the upsides of so-called "free range" you can't. It's basically illegal in USA and Canada, and your neighbours and school will report you and child services will have a nice chat first time, less nice next time.

Above was typed on phone late at night and may sound abrasive, so for context: I live in the Toronto, Canada area. On regular basis, local or national news will have an article about child protection services being engaged for items such as 12 year old left at home alone or a 8 year old being alone on sidewalk etc. Schools and Neighbours are typically the ones who report the incident. Culture is one of protection, an…

True. I grew up 'free range' as you mentioned and there was a lot more freedom to go around the city n my bicycle, take the bus/train and even the airplane before I was 16. It is hardly the case anymore.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#528

Post by dataexporter »

mrinterweb wrote: post #224
dionidium wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a horrible story that resulted in the Maryland CPS issuing the following statement clarifying that what those parents did was not neglect: > And in fact, as Donna St. George reported in yesterday's Washington Post, Maryland's CPS has just issued new guidelines, saying, "Children playing outside or walking unsupervised does not meet the criteria for a CPS response absent specific information supporting the conc…

Even if it is not the norm, people hear about situations like this, and become fearful. Fear of CPS taking kids is enough to make many parents not willing to allow their children freedom.

America lives in constant fear of everything.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#529

Post by asdff »

usrn wrote: post #462
asdff wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even still the crime rates in the US are extremely low.

Not in the city where you can send people to run errands on foot.

It's still extremely low in terms of the odds. Even right in the middle of whatever hood you fear most your odds of anything happening to you are slim to none.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#530

Post by wolverine876 »

DocTomoe wrote: post #461
wolverine876 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> gotten worse since the barriers to commitment went up substantially in the early 1980s That was 40 years ago! > I feel less worried about drug dealers who have a rational economic reason for what they do than an untreated and unhoused paranoid schizophrenic with violent tendencies. I've spent a lot of time on city streets and I've never seen these putative people. The good news is that these bogey-people are unicor…

> That was 40 years ago! Which just means the homeless population had 40 years to be - for the lack of a better word - 'enriched' with people who should have gotten psychiatric help (and them being on the street is unlikely to have made them become better). > They are, in fact, very vulnerable, the weakest people out there. I agree, and I think they ought to get the help they need, and what happens to them in the US…

> open-air forensic psychiatric ward

I wouldn't like that either and thankfully, that's not the reality. Do you have any direct experience? As many people here who have experience, and have said, that is not at all an accurate description.

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