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A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

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Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#221

Post by patmcc »

thatsamonad wrote: post #12

We recently started letting our 9 year-old walk down to a nearby park alone to meet and play with friends. It’s helping them build independence and confidence and I have no concerns about kidnapping, etc, because it’s only a couple of blocks away and we live in a safe neighborhood (they also have a phone they take with them and know to call/text us when they change their plans and go to another nearby park). What I D…

>>>What I DO have concerns about, however, is overzealous adults who see a kid playing alone at a park and decide to call the police or child protective services.

Ding ding ding! This is exactly it. I'm not worried about my 6-year-old walking around the neighbourhood alone, or staying in the car (in proper weather) while I do an errand, or going into a store and grabbing something. I'm not worried about kidnapping and murder and all that stuff, since it's so vanishingly rare that it's worth worrying about as much as lightning.

What I am worried about is some busybody calling CPS because they think kids are stolen and sold if they're left unsupervised for 5 minutes.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#222

Post by DFHippie »

Volrath89 wrote: post #188
uranium wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Would you send your 5 year old self down the streets of San Francisco or Seattle?" Yes. We live in San Francisco, and our kids went to a daycare in the Civic Center. We walked [with the kids] by many homeless people every weekday for years. Our interactions with them were almost universally positive; they'd clear the sidewalk to let kids through, try to keep kids from seeing drug use, chat and share candy, etc. On c…

I grew up in a 3rd world country (now I live in Europe) in a city that by HN comments seems similar to SF (big and full of harmless homeless people/drug addicts everywhere). I remember when I was a kid and I was with my mother I stared to a homeless man for some time. Of course he just seemed peculiar to me, I was a little kid, but this guy got mad and screamed "Do I owe you money or what? why do you keep looking at…

If you stare at anyone long enough they will get mad. I don't recommend this experiment.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#223

Post by trgn »

chasing wrote: post #73

I might trust my kid. I do not trust people in cars.

That's really it. The stranger danger is a dodge.

The real reason people don't let their young children outside is because they might get killed by an inattentive driver. It's the most tangible, innately felt thing out in America's public realm, how crazy dangerous it is on foot, constantly having to be on the lookout for cars. And of course getting blamed if they do happen to be struck. A kid got killed in an apartment complex parking lot in my city by a driver. The comments were horrifying, people felt sorry for the driver, blamed the parents.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#224

Post by mrinterweb »

dionidium wrote: post #199
tempnow987 wrote: post #67

Not in the US they can't. "officials placed two brothers into foster care after one, 11, was found playing basketball alone in his own yard." He'd gotten home early from school and his parents came 90 minutes later. He was in his own yard. The family lost their children to foster care. Ironically in foster care ACTUAL abuse rates are pretty darn high! "When Cindy and Fred arrived home they were arrested for child neg…

That's a horrible story that resulted in the Maryland CPS issuing the following statement clarifying that what those parents did was not neglect: > And in fact, as Donna St. George reported in yesterday's Washington Post, Maryland's CPS has just issued new guidelines, saying, "Children playing outside or walking unsupervised does not meet the criteria for a CPS response absent specific information supporting the conc…

Even if it is not the norm, people hear about situations like this, and become fearful. Fear of CPS taking kids is enough to make many parents not willing to allow their children freedom.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#225

Post by trgn »

gumby wrote: post #93

Is the HN median age too low to remember being handed some money and told to run down to the corner shop and buy cigarettes?

It's not. There are a ton of comments about people reminiscing about doing exactly that.

The problem is the corner shop no longer exists. And if it does, it's a chain, and the rotating staff won't recognize the toddler as being yours. Or going there will get your kid run over by an SUV. Mainly the latter.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#226

Post by monkeybutton »

jacquesm wrote: post #195
anm89 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This risk doesn't seem worth it. You are playing CPS roulette. Even if 9/10 CPS agents are going to make the right decisions, that's a 10% chance of having some kind of issue with CPS. If I recall correctly, people have had their kids taken over stuff like this. I think if this is such a big deal ( I think it is too) you should move out of the city. That's just too big to gamble with.

> Even if 9/10 CPS agents are going to make the right decisions That is extremely optimistic.

The thing that gets me is that people do this stuff all the time and it's not a problem until CPS gets dragged into it, while at the same time the system is massively overburdened. They should be punishing the people calling in mundane issues and wasting their time. But! That might dissuade someone from reporting something, and the first time a bad case is missed the outrage and subsequent overcorrection lands us back to where we are now.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#227

Post by DFHippie »

uranium wrote: post #116
fnordpiglet wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A major difference between when I grew up and now is the prevalence of the severely mentally ill living on city streets. Would you send your 5 year old self down the streets of San Francisco or Seattle? As a 45 year old I’m frightened often enough - I can’t imagine my daughter being forced to navigate those situations alone. The assault and murder rates due to the untreated mentally ill in the cities I’ve lived in is…

"Would you send your 5 year old self down the streets of San Francisco or Seattle?" Yes. We live in San Francisco, and our kids went to a daycare in the Civic Center. We walked [with the kids] by many homeless people every weekday for years. Our interactions with them were almost universally positive; they'd clear the sidewalk to let kids through, try to keep kids from seeing drug use, chat and share candy, etc. On c…

This. The cities are actually safer.

The chief difference is that the segment of the media dedicated to keeping people fearful, particularly of their neighbors, is enormous now. It was always the case that media liked stories of conflict, but this was moderated by a sense of propriety and responsibility to the community. Now, certain voices have enormous megaphones and no restraints and the paranoia and anger they are actively promoting against their own society has taken root generally.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#228

Post by treeman79 »

beej71 wrote: post #47

I don't have any kids, so I don't really feel comfortable telling folks how to raise theirs. But I will tell you my perspective. As someone who grew up in the "be back home in time for supper" 1970s, today's world seems completely foreign. When I started kindergarten, Mom walked me to school on the first day so that I'd know the route. And after that I walked to school on my own until I learned to ride a bike. I rode…

People will absolutely call child services on kids that free range. You can be arrested and have your kids permanently taken away. Rare, but it happens.

I have an adult daughter who thought I was stupid for my constant talks about walking to car in groups, Etc.

She moved back home after a kidnap attempt in a parking lot. At work, She now deals with teenagers that think her lectures are stupid.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#229

Post by trgn »

losvedir wrote: post #190
dqpb wrote: post #157

If I let my child go out on his own, he would get hit by a car almost immediately.

Should probably teach him how to avoid that...

Yes, of course.

It's and/and. Should also teach that driver to slow down, and be prepared to come to an emergency stop at any given time. Or have streets that naturally slow down traffic by their design, if that's too hard for the driver.

Your comment comes from a value system which I find sociopathic. I think it's much more important that the public realm is safe for all, which includes toddlers running errands alone, than that cars should be able to travel at high speed. And beyond that, when piloting 3-ton heavy machinery, one has more responsibility. It's something drivers seem unwilling to accept, rather let's blame the child on foot instead.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#230

Post by WalterBright »

beej71 wrote: post #47

I don't have any kids, so I don't really feel comfortable telling folks how to raise theirs. But I will tell you my perspective. As someone who grew up in the "be back home in time for supper" 1970s, today's world seems completely foreign. When I started kindergarten, Mom walked me to school on the first day so that I'd know the route. And after that I walked to school on my own until I learned to ride a bike. I rode…

If you want a pretty accurate description of what suburban family/kid life was like in the 1960s, see the movie "Apollo 10 1/2".
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