A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV • Hacker News Board

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#111

Post by ultrarunner » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #61

thatsamonad wrote: post #12

We recently started letting our 9 year-old walk down to a nearby park alone to meet and play with friends. It’s helping them build independence and confidence and I have no concerns about kidnapping, etc, because it’s only a couple of blocks away and we live in a safe neighborhood (they also have a phone they take with them and know to call/text us when they change their plans and go to another nearby park). What I D…

That last part is WAY more common and likely than anything else. > Fewer than 350 people under the age of 21 have been abducted by strangers in the United States per year between 2010–2017. > According to the NWS Storm Data, over the last 30 years (1989-2018) the U.S. has averaged 43 reported lightning fatalities per year. So letting kids walk to the park is way less risky than a thunderstorm (though perhaps they sho…

Along these lines I am curious about the number of innocent families affected by the harassment of overzealous adults (my son has had this happen twice) or CPS (zero, fortunately). Given the somewhat subjective nature of "innocent" it's probably not quantifiable, but I sometimes wonder what the risk actually is. Being struck by lightning is unlikely, but the potential effects are serious enough to warrant taking precautions— I wonder how similar the analogy truly is.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#112

Post by killjoywashere » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

In the 80s my mom would give me dollar to go buy milk from the store two blocks away. Then I was taught to use a pay phone and go to the local grocer 3 blocks away. Then I walked to school a mile away. Then I learned to use the bus and I would take myself to the municipal library to read, I have no idea how far it was, but I needed a quarter. The bus driver would change me a dime and a nickel, so I used the dime to get home. We moved out of Omaha in the fall of my fifth grade year. I checked, their crime rate was 3x higher at the time than where we raised our kids. They were barely allowed to walk the six doors to school. Crazy.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#113

Post by burlesona » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:25 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #104

sloreti wrote: post #27

Disappointing that an article like this wouldn’t mention one of the main reasons children are given less autonomy in the US: our built environment. The vast majority of our children grow up in neighborhoods in which one can’t easily be a pedestrian at any age. Low density communities, in which almost all trips have to be taken in cars, are of course not friendly to non-drivers. Japan builds dense, mixed use neighborh…

It feels like a mix of both. Even in my relatively walkable suburb (Reston, VA), it's not really walkable by a child. And things are far enough that a bike is better. But, just around the beltway in Silver Spring, there was a family that made the news a few years ago because they let their kids walk to/from the playground. This was a few city blocks, in an urban area. Somebody saw the kids, went full Karen and called…

Afterwards Texas and Oklahoma both passed laws that parents are allowed to let their kids play outside unsupervised.

Kinda sad that was necessary.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#114

Post by tejohnso » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:25 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #75

robonerd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is the main reason. It fails to explain why neighborhoods that kids played freely in decades ago now keep their kids inside. I'm talking about suburban neighborhoods in modest towns that haven't seen population growth or urban development. I used to walk to school frequently, every time I missed the bus it was a two mile walk down country roads. If the weather was nice, sometimes I'd choose to walk…

Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine really hit home on the fear factory that major news networks promote on nonstop 24h basis. In addition to buying more guns, people also fear everyone else. CPS gone wild is a direct result of that.

> CPS gone wild is a direct result of that.

I read somewhere that some states are passing laws now specifically to protect parents from prosecution for letting 9 year olds play in parks unsupervised. I guess people see kids playing without parents now and think it's some kind of child abuse.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#115

Post by nimajneb » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:32 PM UTC

tejohnso wrote: post #114

r00fus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine really hit home on the fear factory that major news networks promote on nonstop 24h basis. In addition to buying more guns, people also fear everyone else. CPS gone wild is a direct result of that.

> CPS gone wild is a direct result of that. I read somewhere that some states are passing laws now specifically to protect parents from prosecution for letting 9 year olds play in parks unsupervised. I guess people see kids playing without parents now and think it's some kind of child abuse.

Ithaca, NY did this, they declared themselves a "free range kid city"

https://ithacavoice.com/2018/11/city-proclaims-ithacas-kids-...

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#116

Post by uranium » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:33 PM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #51

beej71 wrote: post #47

I don't have any kids, so I don't really feel comfortable telling folks how to raise theirs. But I will tell you my perspective. As someone who grew up in the "be back home in time for supper" 1970s, today's world seems completely foreign. When I started kindergarten, Mom walked me to school on the first day so that I'd know the route. And after that I walked to school on my own until I learned to ride a bike. I rode…

A major difference between when I grew up and now is the prevalence of the severely mentally ill living on city streets. Would you send your 5 year old self down the streets of San Francisco or Seattle? As a 45 year old I’m frightened often enough - I can’t imagine my daughter being forced to navigate those situations alone. The assault and murder rates due to the untreated mentally ill in the cities I’ve lived in is…

"Would you send your 5 year old self down the streets of San Francisco or Seattle?"

Yes.

We live in San Francisco, and our kids went to a daycare in the Civic Center. We walked [with the kids] by many homeless people every weekday for years. Our interactions with them were almost universally positive; they'd clear the sidewalk to let kids through, try to keep kids from seeing drug use, chat and share candy, etc. On cold days when our kids would refuse to wear shirts [love that young metabolism], homeless folks would yell out, "Put a jacket on that kid!".

Most homeless people are just people in terrible situations, not boogiemen to be afraid of. Sure, some of them are mentally ill--if they weren't when they became homeless, it can make you so--but that doesn't make them dangerous.

Every assault makes the news, but cities are safer than they've ever been, and I'm very glad to be raising my kids in SF. The public transit and density of services will give them much greater autonomy than if we lived somewhere where you need a car to get anywhere.

My older kid's first errand was at age 5.5, to get a loaf of bread IIRC, from a market 1 block away, crossing 1 street. He was stopped by the police. The cop told him to tell his parents that he was too young to be out alone. No CPS, no arrest, fortunately, and he let my kid complete his errand alone, but that's the biggest danger around our neighborhood, not the homeless. We're not in the Civic Center, granted, but we're still in SF proper.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#117

Post by andi999 » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

robonerd wrote: post #46

sloreti wrote: post #27

Disappointing that an article like this wouldn’t mention one of the main reasons children are given less autonomy in the US: our built environment. The vast majority of our children grow up in neighborhoods in which one can’t easily be a pedestrian at any age. Low density communities, in which almost all trips have to be taken in cars, are of course not friendly to non-drivers. Japan builds dense, mixed use neighborh…

I don't think this is the main reason. It fails to explain why neighborhoods that kids played freely in decades ago now keep their kids inside. I'm talking about suburban neighborhoods in modest towns that haven't seen population growth or urban development. I used to walk to school frequently, every time I missed the bus it was a two mile walk down country roads. If the weather was nice, sometimes I'd choose to walk…

I think it is two factors: admins in full cya mode and the perceived value of a child increased (going from a necessary nuisance of society to planed single child (not finding the 100% right word here))

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#118

Post by AniseAbyss » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #75

robonerd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is the main reason. It fails to explain why neighborhoods that kids played freely in decades ago now keep their kids inside. I'm talking about suburban neighborhoods in modest towns that haven't seen population growth or urban development. I used to walk to school frequently, every time I missed the bus it was a two mile walk down country roads. If the weather was nice, sometimes I'd choose to walk…

Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine really hit home on the fear factory that major news networks promote on nonstop 24h basis. In addition to buying more guns, people also fear everyone else. CPS gone wild is a direct result of that.

No post body was provided.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#119

Post by jandrese » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #104

sloreti wrote: post #27

Disappointing that an article like this wouldn’t mention one of the main reasons children are given less autonomy in the US: our built environment. The vast majority of our children grow up in neighborhoods in which one can’t easily be a pedestrian at any age. Low density communities, in which almost all trips have to be taken in cars, are of course not friendly to non-drivers. Japan builds dense, mixed use neighborh…

It feels like a mix of both. Even in my relatively walkable suburb (Reston, VA), it's not really walkable by a child. And things are far enough that a bike is better. But, just around the beltway in Silver Spring, there was a family that made the news a few years ago because they let their kids walk to/from the playground. This was a few city blocks, in an urban area. Somebody saw the kids, went full Karen and called…

Reston is hit and miss for pedestrians. It was built during the height of automobile centered development, but the primary constituents were artists who cared about aesthetics. It has a lot of housing developments that are fully equipped with sidewalks, but are also not near much of anything. You can walk, but not really go anywhere.

At least it's not Tysons Corner. They're going to be spending decades trying to undo the damage done by the car centric design.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#120

Post by floren » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

robhh wrote: post #107

johnzim wrote: post #20

As a parent, none of the risks are as profound as that of some other member of the public calling the police to inform on your “dangerous parenting”. I’ve deliberately chosen to live in a walkable part of the Bay Area in the hopes that my kids can be more independent when they get older, but I’m more worried about the social pushback than I am about their safety.

As a new dad, who also moved to the Bay Area from Europe, I would be interested what parts of the Bay Area would provide such a walkable environment?

If you're outside SF itself, look for the old parts of a town, with houses built in the 20s or earlier. There's probably a "main street"/downtown area near by, and because it's an old part of town, the streets are narrower and traffic moves slower.