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A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

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Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#61

Post by bombcar »

thatsamonad wrote: post #12

We recently started letting our 9 year-old walk down to a nearby park alone to meet and play with friends. It’s helping them build independence and confidence and I have no concerns about kidnapping, etc, because it’s only a couple of blocks away and we live in a safe neighborhood (they also have a phone they take with them and know to call/text us when they change their plans and go to another nearby park). What I D…

That last part is WAY more common and likely than anything else.

> Fewer than 350 people under the age of 21 have been abducted by strangers in the United States per year between 2010–2017.

> According to the NWS Storm Data, over the last 30 years (1989-2018) the U.S. has averaged 43 reported lightning fatalities per year.

So letting kids walk to the park is way less risky than a thunderstorm (though perhaps they shouldn't walk to the park IN a thunderstorm).

> In 2019, 608 child passengers age 12 and younger died in motor vehicle crashes, and more than 91,000 were injured. Of the children 12 and younger who died in a crash (for whom restraint use was known), 38% were not buckled up.

I haven't done the numbers, but driving a kid to the park when not buckled up may be more dangerous than letting them walk.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#63

Post by gregjor »

gregjor wrote: post #26
johnzim wrote: post #20

As a parent, none of the risks are as profound as that of some other member of the public calling the police to inform on your “dangerous parenting”. I’ve deliberately chosen to live in a walkable part of the Bay Area in the hopes that my kids can be more independent when they get older, but I’m more worried about the social pushback than I am about their safety.

I let my three kids walk to school, the park, around the corner to friend’s houses. Neighbors complained to my face multiple times, and threatened to call CPS twice. My children all survived to adulthood. I was walking to school with other kids when I was four, no one had a problem with it then. Teaching kids to fear everyone and the world they live in doesn’t do them any good — it just causes anxiety.

One of our neighbors screamed at my wife and me because our six year old son wasn’t wearing a helmet on his Razer scooter to (slowly) go around the corner. That same neighbor let her dog run around off-leash at the park, assuring the parents there that the dog didn’t bite, though it did like to jump on the children. We raised our kids in Portland, where dogs have more rights and freedom than children.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#64

Post by jeffbee »

robonerd wrote: post #46
sloreti wrote: post #27

Disappointing that an article like this wouldn’t mention one of the main reasons children are given less autonomy in the US: our built environment. The vast majority of our children grow up in neighborhoods in which one can’t easily be a pedestrian at any age. Low density communities, in which almost all trips have to be taken in cars, are of course not friendly to non-drivers. Japan builds dense, mixed use neighborh…

I don't think this is the main reason. It fails to explain why neighborhoods that kids played freely in decades ago now keep their kids inside. I'm talking about suburban neighborhoods in modest towns that haven't seen population growth or urban development. I used to walk to school frequently, every time I missed the bus it was a two mile walk down country roads. If the weather was nice, sometimes I'd choose to walk…

Well, that's not the only thing that has changed. 40 years ago when I was walking to elementary school nobody, absolutely nobody, was driving a pick-up truck except to a farm or job site. Now the majority of people are driving vehicles that are much larger than a 1982-model work pickup, and with 5-10x the engine power. Although I admit up-front that the national statistics are badly skewed by the fact that Florida is the most dangerous place on earth for pedestrians, the national pedestrian fatality rate doubled in the 20 years to 2020. Part of this is the built environment and part is what that built environment enabled: people barreling down roads that are far too wide in cars that are far too large, and doing it while browsing Instagram with one hand and both eyes.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#65

Post by robonerd »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #49
robonerd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is the main reason. It fails to explain why neighborhoods that kids played freely in decades ago now keep their kids inside. I'm talking about suburban neighborhoods in modest towns that haven't seen population growth or urban development. I used to walk to school frequently, every time I missed the bus it was a two mile walk down country roads. If the weather was nice, sometimes I'd choose to walk…

Is it an elementary school? In our rural school district, you're probably not even going to be on the school bus schedule if you live within a mile unless you're still in elementary school. In middle school/high school you can have up to a 1 mile walk to the bus before they will add a new stop. Elementary school kids have to be farther than 1/4 mile from the bus stop before they add a new stop. Bear in mind though, t…

Elementary school through highschool. All those schools were within about a mile radius of each other and were served by the same school buses for all grades.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#66

Post by jeffbee »

johnzim wrote: post #20

As a parent, none of the risks are as profound as that of some other member of the public calling the police to inform on your “dangerous parenting”. I’ve deliberately chosen to live in a walkable part of the Bay Area in the hopes that my kids can be more independent when they get older, but I’m more worried about the social pushback than I am about their safety.

The Bay Area is not immune to anti-walking nonsense. At the elementary school that was formerly close to my home (which my children did not attend, specifically due to said nonsense) the children who were walking home had to stay at school for 45 minutes while "pick-up time", i.e. parents with cars picking up children, was conducted. This was deemed a safety measure.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#67

Post by tempnow987 »

Not in the US they can't.

"officials placed two brothers into foster care after one, 11, was found playing basketball alone in his own yard."

He'd gotten home early from school and his parents came 90 minutes later. He was in his own yard. The family lost their children to foster care. Ironically in foster care ACTUAL abuse rates are pretty darn high!

"When Cindy and Fred arrived home they were arrested for child neglect — then fingerprinted, strip searched, and held in jail overnight.Their kids, meanwhile, including their 4-year-old boy, were removed from the home and from their parents’ custody"

Mom worked in the school district ironically.

"We still do not have our children, we are fighting for our own freedom and due to the nature of my employment I am no longer employed,” she wrote. “My son was in his own yard playing basketball, not in the street or at the park. The authorities claim he had no access to water or shelter. We have an open shed in the back yard and 2 working sinks and 2 hoses. They said he had no food. He ate his snacks already. He had no bathroom, but the responding officer found our yard good enough to relieve himself in while our son sat in a police car alone."

Being accused of child abuse / neglect is a career ender. The idea of my 4 year old being taken is beyond belief. What is so ironic is so many real / terrible things are happening (crime of all sorts / abuse in the traditional sense / financial fraud online) where nothing happens. But your kid shoots some hoops in their own yard, you lose custody. You are jailed and strip searched. You lose your job.

I realize big government is here to protect us, I just wish they would focus on the harder problems.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#68

Post by anm89 »

gregjor wrote: post #63
gregjor wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I let my three kids walk to school, the park, around the corner to friend’s houses. Neighbors complained to my face multiple times, and threatened to call CPS twice. My children all survived to adulthood. I was walking to school with other kids when I was four, no one had a problem with it then. Teaching kids to fear everyone and the world they live in doesn’t do them any good — it just causes anxiety.

One of our neighbors screamed at my wife and me because our six year old son wasn’t wearing a helmet on his Razer scooter to (slowly) go around the corner. That same neighbor let her dog run around off-leash at the park, assuring the parents there that the dog didn’t bite, though it did like to jump on the children. We raised our kids in Portland, where dogs have more rights and freedom than children.

This risk doesn't seem worth it. You are playing CPS roulette. Even if 9/10 CPS agents are going to make the right decisions, that's a 10% chance of having some kind of issue with CPS. If I recall correctly, people have had their kids taken over stuff like this.

I think if this is such a big deal ( I think it is too) you should move out of the city. That's just too big to gamble with.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#69

Post by clsec »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #51
beej71 wrote: post #47

I don't have any kids, so I don't really feel comfortable telling folks how to raise theirs. But I will tell you my perspective. As someone who grew up in the "be back home in time for supper" 1970s, today's world seems completely foreign. When I started kindergarten, Mom walked me to school on the first day so that I'd know the route. And after that I walked to school on my own until I learned to ride a bike. I rode…

A major difference between when I grew up and now is the prevalence of the severely mentally ill living on city streets. Would you send your 5 year old self down the streets of San Francisco or Seattle? As a 45 year old I’m frightened often enough - I can’t imagine my daughter being forced to navigate those situations alone. The assault and murder rates due to the untreated mentally ill in the cities I’ve lived in is…

When I first moved to San Francisco I walked from 10th & Mission to Bessie Carmichael School at 7th & Folsom then took MUNI to Commodore Stockton Elementary in Chinatown every weekday. That was in first grade in 1972. At the time SOMA was an extremely bad place, the TL was the same and HP was a place you didn't go if you had light skin (except for MLB & NFL games).

I find that having that autonomy as a child is what has lead me to not be fearful of most things.

btw - not that it's ok, but people exposing themselves has been around for a long time. I've experienced it myself as a child.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#70

Post by robonerd »

ericmay wrote: post #50
robonerd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is the main reason. It fails to explain why neighborhoods that kids played freely in decades ago now keep their kids inside. I'm talking about suburban neighborhoods in modest towns that haven't seen population growth or urban development. I used to walk to school frequently, every time I missed the bus it was a two mile walk down country roads. If the weather was nice, sometimes I'd choose to walk…

I think it's hard to get a read on this and it really depends. For example, where I live there's an elementary school in the neighborhood, low traffic (even though it is the suburbs), and there's a walking path and a playground at the school. When the weather is halfway decent, there are kids streaming through there all day. During the pandemic it was just a party back there, in a good way. But not all suburbs are li…

> I think kids are just staying inside and playing with electronics more too. But why are they doing that? Is the neighborhood not stimulating enough?

Well, that one is easy: their parents permit it. The rule in my home was simple: if you start a video game, you also start a 30 minute egg timer. If you forgot the timer and got caught, you lost the privilege for a week. The egg timer could be upgraded to an hour if I was getting good grades, but the thought of playing games for several hours a day was almost inconceivable. I only got away with that when I was home alone.

Sometimes when I was feeling mopey and started complaining about being bored my mother would get sick of it and yell at me "GO BE BORED OUTSIDE"

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