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Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

#11

Post by giantg2 »

"What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?"

There might be some things we don't understand, like the 21 ounces or whatever that one loses after death. Very interesting, so far unexplained, yet documented phenomenon. Similar things can be said about certain reincarnation and near death experiences - how could they know some of the stuff they do? Maybe there are yet unidentified physical explaination, maybe something else. I am looking forward to answers either way.

For stuff like tarot, there are probably some interesting body language or physiological things that are behind it. I have a hard time believing most stuff like this and mediums. However, that could be that there are a large number hacks obscuring an extremely small number of people with actual talents. I'm also looking forward to any research finding on these topics.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

#12

Post by meerperson »

IceMetalPunk wrote: post #8
trifit wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elaborate.

In philosophy, there's a concept called the "burden of proof", which basically says "a positive claim must be supported, a negative claim can be assumed". This is because, to simplify the formal logic quite a bit, it's logically inconsistent for everything to be true, but not inconsistent for everything to be false. Therefore, if the truth is unknown, it can be assumed to be nonexistent until further evidence arises.…

Many renowned scientists and researchers were also mystics. Mysticism is a personal, subjective framework for insight and self-improvement that doesn't have to follow the rules of the scientific method.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

#13

Post by giantg2 »

IceMetalPunk wrote: post #8
trifit wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elaborate.

In philosophy, there's a concept called the "burden of proof", which basically says "a positive claim must be supported, a negative claim can be assumed". This is because, to simplify the formal logic quite a bit, it's logically inconsistent for everything to be true, but not inconsistent for everything to be false. Therefore, if the truth is unknown, it can be assumed to be nonexistent until further evidence arises.…

What about situations where a known affect is well documented, but the 'how' is unknown and not explained? We accept some of these as real, such as the use of many medications - we can see that they work or produce an affect, but don't know how.

I'm not saying that we should accept metaphysical claims as true, but our world does not strictly follow the null hypothesis either.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

#14

Post by krapp »

giantg2 wrote: post #11

"What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?" There might be some things we don't understand, like the 21 ounces or whatever that one loses after death. Very interesting, so far unexplained, yet documented phenomenon. Similar things can be said about certain reincarnation and near death experiences - how could they know some of the stuff they do? Maybe there are yet unidentified physical explainatio…

>There might be some things we don't understand, like the 21 ounces or whatever that one loses after death. Very interesting, so far unexplained, yet well documented phenomenon.

Sorry, but this has been pretty thoroughly debunked[0].

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

#15

Post by giantg2 »

IceMetalPunk wrote: post #9
h2odragon wrote: post #7

There is more to the world around us than we understand. Tarot cards / systems of interpreting them are a good window into how human minds work, and insofar as that's relevant may indeed be useful. Many of them are also pretty. The tools of rationality, collection of evidence and the scientific method are the best ways we have yet developed to further our understanding of the world. They are not (nor ever will be) co…

On the other hand, if something is unknown, you can either believe it's true or you can believe it's false. If you believe things are true before having any real evidence, then you open yourself to a literal infinity of internally contradictory beliefs. If you instead assume nothing is true until there's evidence, then you do not invite any internally contradictory beliefs.

I think that's a bit of a false dichotomy. One could withhold judgment so as to not hold a belief either way. Some people may answer "I don't know" when asked if they believe something. They hold no conviction one way or the other. It's this curious state in between that provides the most potential for people to explore new ideas.

One could believe in things and not care about proving them to others, yet this will not convince others nor produce any evidence.

One could also hold the view that everything is false and not worth looking into unless someone else provides proof. This will not produce evidence either.

Obviously the range of how individuals approach things is continuous and not discrete like this. But I still think those willing to entertain ideas without accepting or denying them can better explore that topic and use those thoughts cross domains. A world without strict self imposed mental boundaries can be beneficial.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

#16

Post by titaniumtown »

krapp wrote: post #14
giantg2 wrote: post #11

"What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?" There might be some things we don't understand, like the 21 ounces or whatever that one loses after death. Very interesting, so far unexplained, yet documented phenomenon. Similar things can be said about certain reincarnation and near death experiences - how could they know some of the stuff they do? Maybe there are yet unidentified physical explainatio…

>There might be some things we don't understand, like the 21 ounces or whatever that one loses after death. Very interesting, so far unexplained, yet well documented phenomenon. Sorry, but this has been pretty thoroughly debunked[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment

yea, I was just about to comment this. thanks

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

#18

Post by twelve40 »

giantg2 wrote: post #13
IceMetalPunk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In philosophy, there's a concept called the "burden of proof", which basically says "a positive claim must be supported, a negative claim can be assumed". This is because, to simplify the formal logic quite a bit, it's logically inconsistent for everything to be true, but not inconsistent for everything to be false. Therefore, if the truth is unknown, it can be assumed to be nonexistent until further evidence arises.…

What about situations where a known affect is well documented, but the 'how' is unknown and not explained? We accept some of these as real, such as the use of many medications - we can see that they work or produce an affect, but don't know how. I'm not saying that we should accept metaphysical claims as true, but our world does not strictly follow the null hypothesis either.

I think the null hypothesis and the burden of proof applies to a specific claim that "this is how it works". There are plenty of phenomena "officially" unexplained by science yet, and that's ok. But claiming that some cards have some magical meaning doesn't make sense.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

#19

Post by giantg2 »

krapp wrote: post #14
giantg2 wrote: post #11

"What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?" There might be some things we don't understand, like the 21 ounces or whatever that one loses after death. Very interesting, so far unexplained, yet documented phenomenon. Similar things can be said about certain reincarnation and near death experiences - how could they know some of the stuff they do? Maybe there are yet unidentified physical explainatio…

>There might be some things we don't understand, like the 21 ounces or whatever that one loses after death. Very interesting, so far unexplained, yet well documented phenomenon. Sorry, but this has been pretty thoroughly debunked[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment

The follow up experiment on the goats showed an unexplained weight gain and subsequent return to normal.

All my comment was meant to show was that there are things that happen that we have no proven explaination for. The world is still full of unexplained, and even uninvestigated, stuff. It would be interesting to hear the real reason for the weight changes after death (in goats). It may not be about the soul or whatever, but maybe we will learn something new about the physical world.

Re: Ask HN: What do you guys think of Tarot or other metaphysical things?

#20

Post by giantg2 »

twelve40 wrote: post #18
giantg2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about situations where a known affect is well documented, but the 'how' is unknown and not explained? We accept some of these as real, such as the use of many medications - we can see that they work or produce an affect, but don't know how. I'm not saying that we should accept metaphysical claims as true, but our world does not strictly follow the null hypothesis either.

I think the null hypothesis and the burden of proof applies to a specific claim that "this is how it works". There are plenty of phenomena "officially" unexplained by science yet, and that's ok. But claiming that some cards have some magical meaning doesn't make sense.

True. Calling BS on magic is fine. But it could also be wrong to claim tarot is complete BS. It's possible the effects of a tarot reading are explainable by things like observation bias, the subject changing their behaviors due to the reading, or the reader using some sort of body language reading to influence their "interpretation" of the cards.
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