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Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

kenyarmosh.com

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Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#41

Post by [deleted] »

karpierz wrote: post #21
wgx wrote: post #8

Anecdata: I’ve noticed that the voices in an organisation who are more keen for a return to the office tend to be the managers, directors, leadership sort of roles. I wonder if being in the office is just simply more enjoyable for those with power and influence, while individual contributors (trying to get their work done) find they like it more at home?

That's a pretty cynical take. Everyone is trying to get their work done, it's more of a question of whether remote work makes that easier or harder. - People whose productivity is based on regular social interaction will work faster face-to-face. - People whose productivity is based on long periods of focus will work faster remotely.

[deleted]

Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#42

Post by eappleby »

colinmhayes wrote: post #38
silicon2401 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> offices foster collaboration and culture sharing... for you > offices foster collaboration and culture sharing... for you Not everyone is like you. Your claims simply don't apply to those of us who have an easier time collaborating with professional colleagues remotely. It's unfortunate that we are completely disregarded and told what our preferences should be by people who completely fail or are unwilling to under…

I think the future is probably a set of companies that are full remote and a set that have some sort of hybrid model. You can go ahead and work at the remote companies, but saying "The office fosters culture and collaboration is a myth" just because of the way you work and a few companies that have figured out a good remote situation rings hollow.

I don't think he said that offices foster collaboration is a myth. He said (which I agree) is that an office fosters collaboration for some people and it does not foster collaboration for other people and that it is in the best interest of a company's shareholders if they evaluate and consider the opinions of its workers who are on both sides of the spectrum.

Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#43

Post by humanistbot »

silicon2401 wrote: post #35
colinmhayes wrote: post #5

> Go look at Buffer, Zapier, Automattic, GitLab, and more, who are Remote First companies with thriving cultures. I really don't think pointing to a couple companies that are remote and have decent culture invalidates the point that offices foster collaboration and culture sharing. No, it's not impossible to do those things in a remote environment, but it is absolutely much harder. It's not that hard to understand so…

> offices foster collaboration and culture sharing... for you > offices foster collaboration and culture sharing... for you Not everyone is like you. Your claims simply don't apply to those of us who have an easier time collaborating with professional colleagues remotely. It's unfortunate that we are completely disregarded and told what our preferences should be by people who completely fail or are unwilling to under…

Not everyone is like you either.

Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#44

Post by BlargMcLarg »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #33
toomuchtodo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of us seem to connect with colleagues on a personal level, and prefer to instead optimize for what’s necessary to get our work done. These are not friends; they are workers who share a common compensation provider.

...

So is being so extremely judgmental without even considering things from GP's perspective.

They are trying to keep things in harmony while focusing on output. It might not leave the work environment socially positive, but they aren't actively trying to make the place worse socially, either. That doesn't sound a bad deal considering some of us are very selective with relationships and frankly, selecting companies for colleagues would be a ridiculously long and potentially fruitless endeavor. Meanwhile, what you do get is someone who is a large net positive on other fronts.

Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#45

Post by diob »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #32
diob wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically I think those are the same companies that aren't willing to put in the work required to build strong collaborative cultures _onsite_.

> Ironically I think those are the same companies that aren't willing to put in the work required to build strong collaborative cultures _onsite_. Having worked for a company with a strong in-office culture that's significantly eroded during remote work, no, this isn't remotely true and is an almost comical underestimation of how hard it is to convert from an office-first to remote-first company. The real issue is th…

I would argue the same things that make remote successful (good communication, documentation, processes) are things that would benefit an onsite company just as much.

I am interested in what you strong in-office culture, like, what does that mean? What things didn't translate to remote?

Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#46

Post by dmatech »

teus wrote: post #27
wgx wrote: post #8

Anecdata: I’ve noticed that the voices in an organisation who are more keen for a return to the office tend to be the managers, directors, leadership sort of roles. I wonder if being in the office is just simply more enjoyable for those with power and influence, while individual contributors (trying to get their work done) find they like it more at home?

> I wonder if being in the office is just simply more enjoyable for those with power and influence, while individual contributors (trying to get their work done) find they like it more at home? Alternate take 1: If IC positions attract strongly introverted people, ICs as a cohort will naturally be less desirous of returning to the office than cohorts that require some ability to extrovert (such as management). Altern…

Managerial types who value interpersonal interactions definitely value being in the office. But I've noticed that a lot of individual contributors in the technology field are almost outright antisocial. Perhaps their days are so full of pointless emails and conference calls that they justifiably dread human interaction. If so, then these workplaces have much deeper issues with productivity and communication efficiency.

From personal experience, technical individual contributors tend to be much more introverted, and something like ADHD can make constant interruptions far worse than a mere inconvenience. Still, some of them come across as outright misanthropes for some reason.

Introversion is fine, and even introverted managers can do OK so long as they don't bite off more than they can chew. But you cannot manage people if you don't have basic interpersonal skills. In fact, it's helpful to be able to look someone in the eye and see how motivated they are.

Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#47

Post by DoingIsLearning »

postingposts wrote: post #15
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #7

I actually don’t care whether I’m more productive at home or in the office. I’m positive I’m more productive in the office but I won’t return either way. It makes no difference to me . My life is not about my employer extracting 100% of my productivity from me. I have a better quality of life working from home and I’m going to keep it.

NOOOOOOO… you HAVE to be a cog in the machine and not enjoy your own life because… because… NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lol

GP made a really good point and perhaps you also had something interesting to share from your experience. However, the snark distracts from the discussion and adds noise to GPs comment thread.

I mean this without sarcasm, the 'Guidelines' at the bottom of the page and in particular the 'In Comments' section are really on point and worthwhile to read.

Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#48

Post by nunez »

I favor the proliferation of remote work environments, but I disagree with much of this article.

Yes, maintaining a positive and welcoming work culture is intentional. However, human-to-human interaction is a big part of that. There's a big difference between having a few get-togethers per year and being able to ask someone (who might not be in your immediate circle) out to an actual coffee.

Also, career growth is 100% about who you know. Knowing everyone is easy at small companies but is impossible at larger ones. Yes, you can ask your skip-level for an intro to someone outside of your immediate silo, but I'd argue that this is more difficult for people that aren't intrinsically-motivated to make that leap themselves. This is something else that is bolstered by closer proximity and person-to-person interactions.

Everything else mentioned here varies from person to person, IMO.

Offices can be very fun places to be, even if you have a thriving social life. For many, it is very difficult to make friends outside of your regular social interactions.

Yes, there's Meetup, but (a) not even town has a thriving Meetup scene; you can almost bet on Meetup sucking in rural/suburban neighborhoods, and (b) it takes a real ability to go into an event knowing that you'll know no-one and that you'll do your best to leave knowing someone. I hosted large Meetup groups for many years, have gone to countless events and have interacted with probably thousands of people, and I still have a lot of trouble with this because I strongly prefer, and have always preferred, being by myself. Anyone that says "it's easy bro" is probably naturally good at this and doesn't comprehend that someone could struggle here.

On the other hand, offices can be a means to an end for people with families who want to spend as much time with them as possible. For these people, perks and social outings aren't incentivizing. However, many people with families are CONSTANTLY distracted in ways that they wouldn't be in an office. Crying babies, toddlers being toddlers, pets, random noises, etc. are common enough to create a bingo card out of. I don't think this reduces "productivity" (which is in the eyes of the beholder), but these things definitely wouldn't happen in offices.

Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#49

Post by BaseballPhysics »

diob wrote: post #45
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ironically I think those are the same companies that aren't willing to put in the work required to build strong collaborative cultures _onsite_. Having worked for a company with a strong in-office culture that's significantly eroded during remote work, no, this isn't remotely true and is an almost comical underestimation of how hard it is to convert from an office-first to remote-first company. The real issue is th…

I would argue the same things that make remote successful (good communication, documentation, processes) are things that would benefit an onsite company just as much. I am interested in what you strong in-office culture, like, what does that mean? What things didn't translate to remote?

Well, as just one example, communication patterns have to drastically change.

Ours is a very open access office culture. If someone wants to come and ask me a question they are encouraged to do so because we strongly believe in open information sharing, quick decision making, and a high level of autonomy. The result is I cannot count the number of times colleagues have taken advantage of the fact that they could just pop by to ask a quick question, inform me of a decision they're taking, or raise a concern.

The remote work equivalents of that are ad hoc text-based communications--which are extremely low bandwidth, disadvantage slow typists, and lack the emotional subtext provided by facial expressions or body language--or scheduling voice or video calls, which is relatively high friction and still is at best a lackluster substitute for a face-to-face conversation due to poor quality, laggy audio, crappy video, and so forth.

As a result, a ton of that communication has simply shut down in our organization.

The reality is we are not, and for a very long time will not be, in a world where virtual communications tools are as effective as face-to-face interactions. In this world of Zoom, who hasn't accidentally interrupted a colleague, struggled to get a word in edgewise, or found it difficult to hear someone due to a poor audio connection? Or wished for a whiteboard you could use to draw out a concept during an ad hoc problem solving activity? Or thought about pinging someone to have a quick conversation about some topic, only to give up and just write an email because setting up a video session just seemed like a little too much work?

And if your organization relies on a lot of ad hoc communication to function, it will suffer without changes to culture and practices.

Re: Big Myths Employers Are Using to Force “Return to Office”

#50

Post by ryanbrunner »

LunaSea wrote: post #31
ryanbrunner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like for many companies that was a problem that had to be solved a long time ago. It's pretty rare that you're not taking home a work laptop, or have work data on your phone or at least a company-provided phone already.

It's not going to get solved, simply ignored and pushed under the rug.

Oh for sure a lot of companies never bothered to solve it, but the problem existed prior to everyone working from home.
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