One thing I infer is that the college educated are overconfident, sometimes classist. In aggregate they rely on short-cut heuristics like anyone else, with the benefit of believing they are more rational by virtue of class clout (their own, and of pundits they listen to). I've also seen the disdain for the tradesmen and non-educated, not just general misanthropy as alluded to in the article. It's a bit unnerving to see them tip-toe around their in-group society, while being absolutely vicious espousing white-listed thoughts.
Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
41–50 of 67 posts
Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
#42> We are lazy creatures who try to expend as little mental energy as possible.
but I take this as a virtue, not as a vice.
we are efficient, we (as life) do not like to toil needlessly nor wastefully. (IMO, the viciousness comes from an extreme posture in either direction)
but also I want to remark that efficiency is never the goal. is not even a means to the end (of living), it's merely a choice, a preference, an intelligent style favored by a large variety of living things and physical phenomena.
Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
#43> “People are limited in their capacity to process information, so they take shortcuts whenever they can.” > We are lazy creatures who try to expend as little mental energy as possible. > And people are typically less motivated to scrutinize a message if the source is considered to be an expert. We interpret the message through the peripheral route. What are the alternatives though? Dig ever deeper into every piece o…
My concern is that this can too easily result in disaster like a herd of cattle stampeding over a cliff. Everyone's rushing along together, everyone's safe in the herd, and then, oops, goodbye herd. We need more people willing to say "hey you idiots, you're all heading for a cliff". The problem is that anyone saying that will become persona non grata... maybe the really smart cattle just extract themselves from the s…
this is why some of us have a natural resistance to going with the flow.
I know I do but it's individually very costly but I like me this way (after many years of feeling bad for having 'poor social skills').
I like to think this strengthens the group even if it's costly to the individual
Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a while, placards stating something like "In this house, we believe in science" were showing up all over the area I live in. It's very odd because concepts like faith and belief are inherently religious, and don't have any place in scientific inquiry. A notion like 'these are the fundamental truths of our religion, and to be a member of this religion, you must accept them without question' has no place in the sci…
> For a while, placards stating something like "In this house, we believe in science" were showing up all over the area I live in. It's very odd because concepts like faith and belief are inherently religious, and don't have any place in scientific inquiry. Belief is not “inherently religious”, religion is one of many kinds of beliefs. Science is centered on a particular epistemology—a belief about what makes a belie…
According to Popperian epistemology, there are no justified beliefs, only guesses that have been exposed to tests of some sort. I think David Deutsch has even used a formulation of words something similar to: "you shouldn't believe things".
Isn't that a meaningless distinction? If I've tested my hypothesis, isn't "believe" perfectly fine as a label for how you think about it then? It is, but when people use that word they often have in mind that the source of the knowledge is important -- it isn't. I think that is what's behind most of the "I believe in Science" statements. What's really important is rather how vulnerable to attack an idea is.
Edit: "believe in" also tends to get used with the implication that a time needs to arrive where you make a decision that a hypothesis is true. That also goes against Popperian epistemology, which says rather that all ideas remain subject to correction forever.
Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a while, placards stating something like "In this house, we believe in science" were showing up all over the area I live in. It's very odd because concepts like faith and belief are inherently religious, and don't have any place in scientific inquiry. A notion like 'these are the fundamental truths of our religion, and to be a member of this religion, you must accept them without question' has no place in the sci…
> For a while, placards stating something like "In this house, we believe in science" were showing up all over the area I live in. It's very odd because concepts like faith and belief are inherently religious, and don't have any place in scientific inquiry. Belief is not “inherently religious”, religion is one of many kinds of beliefs. Science is centered on a particular epistemology—a belief about what makes a belie…
True enough. This is why the simulation hypothesis is so interesting - i.e. the notion we are all living in a perfect VR simulation that never glitches. Science can't be used to address the veracity of that hypothesis, much to the apparent dismay of the fundamentalist atheists. I really lost interest in Richard Dawkins after he said something like "I won't answer silly questions about whether chairs and tables are real".
Similarly, one could argue that supernatural beings from alternative universes are constantly intervening in local events, but they make sure to do it only when the scientists aren't watching.
Personally I don't really care if we're working out the rules of the simulation or the rules of base reality, as we can't distinguish between the two.
Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are pervasive ideas preacher "experts" provide that is counter factual to their source- the Bible. Ex: https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale... A lot of Christian popular ideas are unfortunately stemmed from "money worship" The good thing about the reformation is that it democratized information - everyone can check and study the source The bad thing is that everyone can interpret and cre…
I have to wonder: isn't this how democratizing information goes in general? In my lifetime I think we did it yet again with the Internet and especially social media. On the good side, people who care enough can check and study the source for just about anything; on the bad side, we see that most people don't care enough and are perfectly OK with consuming lies and manipulation. Then came people who were also perfectl…
That is where ethics/morals come into play: knowledge is power, and power is responsibility.
Ie. It is their responsibility to not lie as it is yours to find the truth
Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
in this comment you are doing the exact thing the article talks about, positioning groups as good guys/bad guys and thus signaling your status as either a good guy or someone who at least knows the difference.
Aren't you doing the same thing too?
And you as well, Sir ...
... oh, wait ...
Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
#48> “People are limited in their capacity to process information, so they take shortcuts whenever they can.” > We are lazy creatures who try to expend as little mental energy as possible. > And people are typically less motivated to scrutinize a message if the source is considered to be an expert. We interpret the message through the peripheral route. What are the alternatives though? Dig ever deeper into every piece o…
My concern is that this can too easily result in disaster like a herd of cattle stampeding over a cliff. Everyone's rushing along together, everyone's safe in the herd, and then, oops, goodbye herd. We need more people willing to say "hey you idiots, you're all heading for a cliff". The problem is that anyone saying that will become persona non grata... maybe the really smart cattle just extract themselves from the s…
How do you know you're not the one heading for a cliff? And anyway, that is why we have multiple herds and some individual rebels. Our entire history was this way, when one herd goes of a cliff another herd profits.
Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a while, placards stating something like "In this house, we believe in science" were showing up all over the area I live in. It's very odd because concepts like faith and belief are inherently religious, and don't have any place in scientific inquiry. A notion like 'these are the fundamental truths of our religion, and to be a member of this religion, you must accept them without question' has no place in the sci…
> For a while, placards stating something like "In this house, we believe in science" were showing up all over the area I live in. It's very odd because concepts like faith and belief are inherently religious, and don't have any place in scientific inquiry. Belief is not “inherently religious”, religion is one of many kinds of beliefs. Science is centered on a particular epistemology—a belief about what makes a belie…
I'm not a native English speaker, but I think that the words "believe" and "belief" have diverged in meaning a little bit. "Belief" means any piece of information that a person holds as true (as in justified true belief as what used to be definition of knowledge), and "believe" is a specific way to hold something as true — not through experiment or logic, but usually through submission to someone's expert authority.
Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
Discussing Christian Culture (capital C) in the context of this is particularly apt, because it is supposed to be about walking and growing in Christ, yet it often ends up being about...other things. Certain parts of Christian Culture are just downright weird in their emphasis on hypermasculinity ("Jesus is a warrior who is coming back!"), wealth/success ("God's blessings!"), cultural influence ("we need to fight in…
I think similar and related issues come up in most religious communities. But the specifics you name are pretty specific to american evangelical christianity and should probably be labeled as such. They're doing a good job forging alliances and exporting these values into other branches of christianity too, but that process is just beginning and these specific elements aren't as foundational elsewhere. Yet, anyway.
Agree. We are lucky that there is a lot more to Christianity than the evangelical American take.