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Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

quillette.com

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Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#21

Post by 21723 »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #4

"In short, people have a mechanism in their minds. It stops them from saying something that could lower their status, even if it’s true. And it propels them to say something that could increase their status, even if it’s false."

I've seen this play out over and over in the corporate world--and, yes, the "educated" white-collar people are the worst; 90% of them are sheep. It's why these companies can continue to assert their own meritocracy. No one wants to become that bitter guy who complains about the promotion he didn't get and how unfair the system is--even though he knows the company better than the true believers.

I don't often find myself agreeing with Quillette (it's a conservative publication, and I'm a leftist) but this article is spot-on in its veiled critique of the centrist-liberal ("neoliberal") elite. A small number of people have managed to dominate the culture and economy by convincing us that everything is complex and that we're just not smart enough to understand anything--and, while they're not entirely wrong on the matter of complexity, I've met so many of them I can say with confidence that none of them understand what's going on either (as Covid has proved).

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#22

Post by bsenftner »

freewinz wrote: post #11

Great article. Really applies to so much happening during the covid times, and explains why there seems to be so much cognitive dissonance with the educated population.

There is also another major factor behind why there is so much disagreement between the educated population: there are multiple ways to solve most situations, but there is only one way to tow the line. Republican strategy is to tow the line, whatever that line is, so they are consistent. While the opposition seeks an optimal solution, and that process appears as in-fighting.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#23

Post by inglor_cz »

21723 wrote: post #19
inglor_cz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but to a limited extent. Recent successess of SpaceX, RocketLab etc. seem to have reinvigorated interest of the young engineering generation in space exploration to a degree unseen in the 1990s. Working on a Mars rocket is much cooler than working on user tracking systems in some giant tech corporation. Watching something like Starship really launching from the Earth beats hundreds of hours of video games squar…

Recent successess of SpaceX, RocketLab etc. seem to have reinvigorated interest of the young engineering generation in space exploration to a degree unseen in the 1990s. Working on a Mars rocket is much cooler than working on user tracking systems in some giant tech corporation. Private progress into space shouldn't be celebrated. If rich people get there first, they'll use it for ill. What Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk's…

Humans in general are capable of evil, not just private actors, and I fail to see how governmental activity in space was, on average, more honorable than whatever Musk or Bezos are planning to do there.

By far the most space-interested arm of a government is the military and plainclothed spies. Neither are particularly morally virtuous.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#24

Post by prionassembly »

scns wrote: post #9
bsenftner wrote: post #2

I've been saying it forever: prestige is the #1 driver of human motivation, and because of this humans do not scale. The prestige party destroys forward progress with empty displays of acquired crap.

Lobsters are over 350_000_000 years old. Their place in the dominance hierarchy gets signalled in the same way in our brain, with serotonin. The parallel to serotonin deficiency in depressed people is intruiging.

What?

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#25

Post by mattgreenrocks »

deebosong wrote: post #10

Anecdotally, I've seen this play out at religious communities (though I'm not at all in doubt that this phenomenon is commonplace and prevalent everywhere). I've often noted to myself when core beliefs that were expressed/ leaked, revealed that rather than being rooted in the Bible for instance (interpretations of which are highly debated), many people's beliefs in said community were often about furthering and advan…

Discussing Christian Culture (capital C) in the context of this is particularly apt, because it is supposed to be about walking and growing in Christ, yet it often ends up being about...other things. Certain parts of Christian Culture are just downright weird in their emphasis on hypermasculinity ("Jesus is a warrior who is coming back!"), wealth/success ("God's blessings!"), cultural influence ("we need to fight in the culture wars!"), etc. Or, the never-ending dialogue about what it means to be a Real Man (for your wife and children, of course!).

Note that all of those examples I mentioned are status symbols in the secular culture at large. IMO, we've failed at making an alternative, superior culture, despite having the exact model given. Instead, Christians just seem to soft-fork secular culture, change a few things, slap some Bible verses on it, ship it, and then act surprised when non-believers see right through it.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#26

Post by tdehnel »

bsenftner wrote: post #22
freewinz wrote: post #11

Great article. Really applies to so much happening during the covid times, and explains why there seems to be so much cognitive dissonance with the educated population.

There is also another major factor behind why there is so much disagreement between the educated population: there are multiple ways to solve most situations, but there is only one way to tow the line. Republican strategy is to tow the line, whatever that line is, so they are consistent. While the opposition seeks an optimal solution, and that process appears as in-fighting.

in this comment you are doing the exact thing the article talks about, positioning groups as good guys/bad guys and thus signaling your status as either a good guy or someone who at least knows the difference.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#28

Post by giraffe_lady »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #25
deebosong wrote: post #10

Anecdotally, I've seen this play out at religious communities (though I'm not at all in doubt that this phenomenon is commonplace and prevalent everywhere). I've often noted to myself when core beliefs that were expressed/ leaked, revealed that rather than being rooted in the Bible for instance (interpretations of which are highly debated), many people's beliefs in said community were often about furthering and advan…

Discussing Christian Culture (capital C) in the context of this is particularly apt, because it is supposed to be about walking and growing in Christ, yet it often ends up being about...other things. Certain parts of Christian Culture are just downright weird in their emphasis on hypermasculinity ("Jesus is a warrior who is coming back!"), wealth/success ("God's blessings!"), cultural influence ("we need to fight in…

I think similar and related issues come up in most religious communities. But the specifics you name are pretty specific to american evangelical christianity and should probably be labeled as such.

They're doing a good job forging alliances and exporting these values into other branches of christianity too, but that process is just beginning and these specific elements aren't as foundational elsewhere. Yet, anyway.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#29

Post by dan12ha »

scns wrote: post #9
bsenftner wrote: post #2

I've been saying it forever: prestige is the #1 driver of human motivation, and because of this humans do not scale. The prestige party destroys forward progress with empty displays of acquired crap.

Lobsters are over 350_000_000 years old. Their place in the dominance hierarchy gets signalled in the same way in our brain, with serotonin. The parallel to serotonin deficiency in depressed people is intruiging.

Is that 12 rules for life? Great book.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#30

Post by mgh2 »

deebosong wrote: post #10

Anecdotally, I've seen this play out at religious communities (though I'm not at all in doubt that this phenomenon is commonplace and prevalent everywhere). I've often noted to myself when core beliefs that were expressed/ leaked, revealed that rather than being rooted in the Bible for instance (interpretations of which are highly debated), many people's beliefs in said community were often about furthering and advan…

There are pervasive ideas preacher "experts" provide that is counter factual to their source- the Bible.

Ex: https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale...

A lot of Christian popular ideas are unfortunately stemmed from "money worship"

The good thing about the reformation is that it democratized information - everyone can check and study the source

The bad thing is that everyone can interpret and create their own "truth" with lies and manipulation.

Unfortunately, there is no peer reviewed process as with the scientific method

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