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Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

quillette.com

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Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#31
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also another major factor behind why there is so much disagreement between the educated population: there are multiple ways to solve most situations, but there is only one way to tow the line. Republican strategy is to tow the line, whatever that line is, so they are consistent. While the opposition seeks an optimal solution, and that process appears as in-fighting.

in this comment you are doing the exact thing the article talks about, positioning groups as good guys/bad guys and thus signaling your status as either a good guy or someone who at least knows the difference.

Aren't you doing the same thing too?

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#32
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also another major factor behind why there is so much disagreement between the educated population: there are multiple ways to solve most situations, but there is only one way to tow the line. Republican strategy is to tow the line, whatever that line is, so they are consistent. While the opposition seeks an optimal solution, and that process appears as in-fighting.

in this comment you are doing the exact thing the article talks about, positioning groups as good guys/bad guys and thus signaling your status as either a good guy or someone who at least knows the difference.

I don't think that it's good vs bad, but that a fundamental part of conservatism is keeping things the same, or returning to some sort of prior tradition. That is going to be more cohesive and consistent by its very definition.

It's not a value statement at all.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#33
Great article, it really focuses on how state/corporate propaganda tends to be most intensely focused on the wealthier and more highly educated segments of society. Additionally, this group (which includes corporate middle managers etc.) is most at risk of losing their position in the social system by expressing contrary opinions. This bit in particular is interesting:

> "In short, people have a mechanism in their minds. It stops them from saying something that could lower their status, even if it’s true. And it propels them to say something that could increase their status, even if it’s false. Sometimes, local norms can push against this tendency. Certain communities (e.g., scientists) can obtain status among their peers for expressing truths. But if the norm is relaxed, people might default to seeking status over truth if status confers the greater reward."

Consider the role of 'cultural fit' in hiring in the software development world as an example of this phenomenon. If we take two people with equivalent technical skills in competition for a job, almost certainly the one with the better 'cultural fit' will be hired. 'Cultural fit' is an eyebrow-raising phrase for those with some knowledge of this phenomenon because the specifics, the desired cultural qualities, are almost never explicitly spelled out. Doing covert surveillance on a prospective employer to determine what their expected cultural norms are is not a bad idea if one really needs a job and is willing to swing like a weathervane.

It's also fun to imagine what political views would cause the most pushback at any given time. Right now, anyone saying that the USA should treat the Russia-Ukraine conflict with the same indifference that the USA treats the Saudi-Yemen conflict, i.e. continuing to do business with both Russia and Saudi Arabia without restriction, is going to be turned on with howls of outrage across the board. Regardless, Putin's behavior is rather similar to that of Saudi prince MBS, they seem quite friendly as well:

https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-mohammed-bin-salman-hi...

If you then point out that Saudi Arabia deposits its oil money in Wall Street banks, while Russia certainly does not, and note that this explains the differential treatment, well, prepare to be excommunicated.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#34
post #17

"In short, people have a mechanism in their minds. It stops them from saying something that could lower their status, even if it’s true. And it propels them to say something that could increase their status, even if it’s false."

This is why Twitter is so vicious.

[deleted]

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#35
> “People are limited in their capacity to process information, so they take shortcuts whenever they can.”

> We are lazy creatures who try to expend as little mental energy as possible.

> And people are typically less motivated to scrutinize a message if the source is considered to be an expert. We interpret the message through the peripheral route.

What are the alternatives though? Dig ever deeper into every piece of information until you get stuck on what fundamental particle/laws is the universe made of? Trust your taxi driver on what is wrong with your health rather than your doctor? Trust neither and spend 20 years in school to understand why your stomach hurts today?

All articles about biases, mental shortcuts, preconceived ideas and so on miss on offering a real alternative. And guess why, because there is none. It's the best we have, as imperfect as these mechanisms are.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#36

Anecdotally, I've seen this play out at religious communities (though I'm not at all in doubt that this phenomenon is commonplace and prevalent everywhere). I've often noted to myself when core beliefs that were expressed/ leaked, revealed that rather than being rooted in the Bible for instance (interpretations of which are highly debated), many people's beliefs in said community were often about furthering and advan…

For a while, placards stating something like "In this house, we believe in science" were showing up all over the area I live in. It's very odd because concepts like faith and belief are inherently religious, and don't have any place in scientific inquiry. A notion like 'these are the fundamental truths of our religion, and to be a member of this religion, you must accept them without question' has no place in the scientific world. Any claim can be questioned, if one has the observational or experimental results to support alternative explanations.

I've seen this most often in the strident atheist crowd, many of whom appear to be refugees from strict religious upbringings. They haven't actually adopted the open-minded experimentalist approach that science relies on, but have merely switched their allegiance from 'faith in religion' to 'faith in science'.

This was all spectacularly on display when 'junk DNA' concepts were replaced by the now well-supported notion that there is no junk DNA, instead it plays important structural roles in the genome. The atheist argument that junk DNA proved evolution was a random flawed process (hence no 'intelligent design') had become an article of faith in that crowd, and they reacted to the new data rather like fundamentalists react to heresy.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-a...

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#37

Anecdotally, I've seen this play out at religious communities (though I'm not at all in doubt that this phenomenon is commonplace and prevalent everywhere). I've often noted to myself when core beliefs that were expressed/ leaked, revealed that rather than being rooted in the Bible for instance (interpretations of which are highly debated), many people's beliefs in said community were often about furthering and advan…

For a while, placards stating something like "In this house, we believe in science" were showing up all over the area I live in. It's very odd because concepts like faith and belief are inherently religious, and don't have any place in scientific inquiry. A notion like 'these are the fundamental truths of our religion, and to be a member of this religion, you must accept them without question' has no place in the sci…

> For a while, placards stating something like "In this house, we believe in science" were showing up all over the area I live in. It's very odd because concepts like faith and belief are inherently religious, and don't have any place in scientific inquiry.

Belief is not “inherently religious”, religion is one of many kinds of beliefs. Science is centered on a particular epistemology—a belief about what makes a belief justified—rather than opposed to belief.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#38
> This isn’t a partisan issue, either. Gibson and Sutherland report that, “The percentage of Democrats who are worried about speaking their mind is just about identical to the percentage of Republicans who self-censor: 39 and 40 percent, respectively.”

It may not be partisan in that sense, but today's fear is still coming from one side's extreme.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#39

> “People are limited in their capacity to process information, so they take shortcuts whenever they can.” > We are lazy creatures who try to expend as little mental energy as possible. > And people are typically less motivated to scrutinize a message if the source is considered to be an expert. We interpret the message through the peripheral route. What are the alternatives though? Dig ever deeper into every piece o…

My concern is that this can too easily result in disaster like a herd of cattle stampeding over a cliff. Everyone's rushing along together, everyone's safe in the herd, and then, oops, goodbye herd. We need more people willing to say "hey you idiots, you're all heading for a cliff".

The problem is that anyone saying that will become persona non grata... maybe the really smart cattle just extract themselves from the stampede, thinking, "too bad for you fools, it's a Darwin moment, guess that means more grass for me."

Unfortunately that strategy doesn't really work when humans are stampeding for nuclear war and climatic destruction, there won't be any grass left for anyone.

Re: Persuasion and the Prestige Paradox (2021)

#40
post #30

Anecdotally, I've seen this play out at religious communities (though I'm not at all in doubt that this phenomenon is commonplace and prevalent everywhere). I've often noted to myself when core beliefs that were expressed/ leaked, revealed that rather than being rooted in the Bible for instance (interpretations of which are highly debated), many people's beliefs in said community were often about furthering and advan…

There are pervasive ideas preacher "experts" provide that is counter factual to their source- the Bible. Ex: https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale... A lot of Christian popular ideas are unfortunately stemmed from "money worship" The good thing about the reformation is that it democratized information - everyone can check and study the source The bad thing is that everyone can interpret and cre…

I have to wonder: isn't this how democratizing information goes in general? In my lifetime I think we did it yet again with the Internet and especially social media. On the good side, people who care enough can check and study the source for just about anything; on the bad side, we see that most people don't care enough and are perfectly OK with consuming lies and manipulation. Then came people who were also perfectly OK with producing any kind of lie and manipulation to get what they wanted. And they largely did get what they wanted, up to and including presidential elections. We now have both: more educated, curious, and well-informed people than ever and more manipulative, toxic charlatans with huge followings than ever. It would be great if we could have the former without the latter, but would that be possible, even in theory? I'm not sure...
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