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Eight points for one team is two points for another team

lloydatkinson.net

31–40 of 105 posts

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#31

I use story points and estimation for my own personal projects. They are private numbers that only I can hold myself accountable for, so there's no reason to be dishonest. And they help me plan and gauge my trajectory and what I need to prioritize.

This is exactly what I do. I do this in my job as well, but privately. Making myself my own product manager. Do you use a tool to do this? Spreadsheet?

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#32
post #2

Whatever Agile was, it's absolute garbage these days. It largely exists to hold developers maximally accountable to the business, at the expense of technical excellence or even maintenance, which can be expressed in its gun-language of Jira tickets and so get ignored. Fuck user stories, fuck sprints, fuck Jira, and fuck product management (a job in which one defines success by getting into one's boss's job as fast as…

> Whatever Agile was Has it changed? The Manifesto[1] is still there, unmodified, to provide thoughts on what you need to consider if you are going to run a software project without managers. > Fuck user stories, fuck sprints, fuck Jira, and fuck product management That does not sound like Aglie, especially given that you specifically call out managers, which are incongruent with Agile. The top-down organization wher…

That is Agile of the noumenal realm. You will never meet it, just as you will never sit upon the Platonic ideal of a chair. Agile, if one deals with it, is Agile-in-the-wild. Compare the original teachings of a religious leader with what you find in the followers.

Ah, but you could say, "That's not Agile's fault that people don't live up to it," but in a sense, it is, because Agile did not bother to anticipate that people would fall off of the path. Agile has no orthodoxy. Agile does not suggest punishment for bringing up deadlines. This has allowed people to pick-and-choose.

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#33
post #8

I have never seen a ton of value in the exact number of story points, but they are a good way to have the "30 minute debate" that the author decries. If a task is so unclearly written that the team can't get a rough idea of the complexity in a reasonable amount of time, then it's a signal that the story can't be done or that something needs to change; more knowledge sharing, clearer success criteria for the story/tas…

I think the author was saying the 30 minute debate is a problem when deciding between 1 and 2. 30 minute debate over a "100" might be worthwhile, as long as you're doing it as part of refinement and not during planning.

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#34

This post is starting to fill up with what sounds like a kind of hopelessness mixed with anger against Agile. It's possible to do sprints, pointing, demos, and retros well, but you have to own it as the engineering team. This means understanding and adapting the process to your needs. Agree on your definition of done. Set boundaries for pointing. Prevent confusing or unfinished stories from being point. Communicate h…

When there is so much overhead in process, the process is a waste of time.

Management needs to skill up.

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever Agile was Has it changed? The Manifesto[1] is still there, unmodified, to provide thoughts on what you need to consider if you are going to run a software project without managers. > Fuck user stories, fuck sprints, fuck Jira, and fuck product management That does not sound like Aglie, especially given that you specifically call out managers, which are incongruent with Agile. The top-down organization wher…

That is not at all what waterfall means. And calling "Agile" as the same thing as whatever the Manifesto says is like calling any other religion whatever their holy book "says".

You’re right in your second point, at least. Whatever you develop out of the thoughts of Agile won’t be called Agile. It is its own thing, with whatever new name you decide to give it.

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#36
post #2

Whatever Agile was, it's absolute garbage these days. It largely exists to hold developers maximally accountable to the business, at the expense of technical excellence or even maintenance, which can be expressed in its gun-language of Jira tickets and so get ignored. Fuck user stories, fuck sprints, fuck Jira, and fuck product management (a job in which one defines success by getting into one's boss's job as fast as…

Big A Agile is what happened after management consultants got hold of little a agile and its manifesto.

Now people get certifications in scrum dogma and claim we have to follow the one true way. Now it's entirely about managing people instead of about satisfying customers. That's why a bunch of folks left years ago to work on development as craft.

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#37
post #2

Whatever Agile was, it's absolute garbage these days. It largely exists to hold developers maximally accountable to the business, at the expense of technical excellence or even maintenance, which can be expressed in its gun-language of Jira tickets and so get ignored. Fuck user stories, fuck sprints, fuck Jira, and fuck product management (a job in which one defines success by getting into one's boss's job as fast as…

> Whatever Agile was Has it changed? The Manifesto[1] is still there, unmodified, to provide thoughts on what you need to consider if you are going to run a software project without managers. > Fuck user stories, fuck sprints, fuck Jira, and fuck product management That does not sound like Aglie, especially given that you specifically call out managers, which are incongruent with Agile. The top-down organization wher…

Look, when a job req goes out and it says "experience with Agile development methodologies" what it means is "experience doing Scrum with Jira". The Manifesto has sweet fuck all to do with what is meant when companies say Agile.

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#38
post #2

Whatever Agile was, it's absolute garbage these days. It largely exists to hold developers maximally accountable to the business, at the expense of technical excellence or even maintenance, which can be expressed in its gun-language of Jira tickets and so get ignored. Fuck user stories, fuck sprints, fuck Jira, and fuck product management (a job in which one defines success by getting into one's boss's job as fast as…

> Whatever Agile was Has it changed? The Manifesto[1] is still there, unmodified, to provide thoughts on what you need to consider if you are going to run a software project without managers. > Fuck user stories, fuck sprints, fuck Jira, and fuck product management That does not sound like Aglie, especially given that you specifically call out managers, which are incongruent with Agile. The top-down organization wher…

Much of the usage of the term Agile now refers to Scrum which took Agile and made it into something digestible mb large corporations and business people and made it easily sellable and reproducible. It's a corruption of Agile. Even the term "sprint" makes me angry. We aren't sprinting! This isn't even a marathon! We are running forever and I want to run fast forever, not sprint and burn out after a short time.

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#39
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agile is assuredly garbage but having every development company use the exact same process and terminology is too valuable to give up. It reduces training times, increases tool familiarity, and gets the process out of the way of developers.

> Agile is assuredly garbage but having every development company use the exact same process and terminology is too valuable to give up. But...Agile doesn't involve that. Even when the same words are used, they don't have the same meaning, often, and the substantive processes even within vaguely Scrum-ish methodologies vary widely.

What has been said so often on HN, AGILE started as a great tool that turned into a cult with no knowledge of why the things being used were being used. Its terminology and practices became mysticism and ritual, with common sense thrown to the wayside.

There are exceptions, but in far too many companies AGILE has become a religion that slows the workforce down with high priests who insist that their ritualistic practices be followed and their tithes be paid =[

Re: Eight points for one team is two points for another team

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not at all what waterfall means. And calling "Agile" as the same thing as whatever the Manifesto says is like calling any other religion whatever their holy book "says".

You’re right in your second point, at least. Whatever you develop out of the thoughts of Agile won’t be called Agile. It is its own thing, with whatever new name you decide to give it.

You can build your own processes around Agile principles. As long as you don't carve the processes in stone and revisit them you still can be Agile.
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