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The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

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Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#31

Post by inglor_cz »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #29
inglor_cz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of stuff in between. For example, Down syndrome can be practically eradicated by selectively aborting aneuploid embryos. Of course, the embryo cannot consent, and while the parents can, institutional pressures can be put on them to make them change their mind. Countries like Iceland and Denmark abort almost all Down syndrome embryos. This article in The Atlantic does not seem to be completely OK with t…

> institutional pressures can be put on them to make them change their mind. Which is a weird and arbitrary location to draw the line considering how those institutions tend to lean on other issues, or even the same issue in a slightly different context.

I wasn't trying to draw any line anywhere. It is notoriously hard to draw any lines when it comes to disabilities.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#32

Post by mannykannot »

inglor_cz wrote: post #28
mannykannot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all that eugenics was or is concerned with was the removal of some harmful alleles by consensual methods, and it was not a pile of often racist bullshit falsely claiming to be based on what is actually solid science, it would not have a bad name.

There is a lot of stuff in between. For example, Down syndrome can be practically eradicated by selectively aborting aneuploid embryos. Of course, the embryo cannot consent, and while the parents can, institutional pressures can be put on them to make them change their mind. Countries like Iceland and Denmark abort almost all Down syndrome embryos. This article in The Atlantic does not seem to be completely OK with t…

If CRISPR enabled a way to achieve the same outcome while avoiding these concerns (to be clear, I have no idea whether this is a possibility), that would seem to be a desirable outcome from all points of view.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#33

Post by tenpies »

inglor_cz wrote: post #5
christkv wrote: post #2

Reminds me of Lysenkoism where one mans delusions of science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism set back the discourse as it was enforced as state policy.

I wonder where we are now. Long shadows of Hitler and eugenics do certainly have a chilling effect on research of intelligence etc. This article published last year in the New Yorker goes into details. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressiv... I get the political unease that surrounds such topics, but with things like CRISPR making gene editing possible, we could improve inborn traits in living…

> Long shadows of Hitler and eugenics do certainly have a chilling effect on research of intelligence etc.

Speaking solely about eugenics: it wasn't Hitler, eugenics were largely considered progressive at the time and the Right Thing To Do. Most of the Nordic countries today that Western countries admire have eugenics programs to some degree or another, they just don't use the word eugenics.

You could argue that the US for example has one of the most "successful" eugenics programs in the world - just look up the demographics of the abortions funded by tax-payer money.

You could also argue that many of the global NGOs that are popular among Western leaders today have a strong eugenics focus, but again, nobody uses that word. It's much easier to suggest that a population shouldn't reproduce by calling it feminism, empowerment, or simply making child-raising a luxury good.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#34

Post by mistrial9 »

ch4s3 wrote: post #19
hushpuppy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad we live in a era were accusations and rumors are not used as political weapons against individuals.

I don’t recall anyone being sent to work camps for criticizing government policy in the US recently.

most people reading this have never missed a meal in their lives; a good number of people reading this have never been in a grown-up out-of-money situation where you face deadlines and have no source of money; probably a few people reading this have had to work doing low-skill work, but personal computers have changed access stories. The new version of "labor camp" is a phone that costs you little to nothing but is restricted, tracked and required, and work that is low-skill or away from a center of decision making somehow. Parts of this are happening in the USA out of sight, and elsewhere, and it may be increasing under new economics regarding income and housing. Smug dismissal among those that have never really had parts of it yet, can be expected IMHO

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#35

Post by duxup »

The loss of humanity in Russia and Eastern Europe surrounding (not just during) WWII is astounding.

If you weren’t persecuted by your own country you might be by an invading nation… and then again by a second invasion…

It seems like if you were at all prominent or notably educated someone would be suspicious of you.

And if you weren’t you still had a risk of random events.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#38

Post by motohagiography »

What is it about astronomers and blind spots for heresy risk. Is there a tradition starting with Archimedes through Copernicus and Galileo where they are just disagreeable?

Reading about the soviet purges, it's almost as if they had a simple idea that implied a few consequent beliefs that allowed parties to signal alignment to each other, and then encouraged coordinated aggression against anyone not sufficiently on side.

It rewarded a certain kind of opportunist who wanted to use it to push out competition, and the logic was given there was no such thing as truth or meaning, does it matter whether you are doing valuable work if the credit and proceeds go to someone not aligned to the revolution? Just call them enemies and take their stuff, or be an enemy and have your stuff taken. Convince some people they're in a zero sum game with no higher consequences and they'll do the rest themselves. By most accounts, it sounded like just cultural banditry with a zombie virus ideology and the populace were too meek to do much about it.

Surprised we don't learn more about it in the west just to innoculate people against poor thinking, as it seems like something so obvious and dumb, yet something that could also happen anywhere. Maybe astronomers seeing the vastness of creation and the universe just wouldn't believe other people could be that stupid and evil until it was too late.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#39

Post by homonculus1 »

motohagiography wrote: post #38

What is it about astronomers and blind spots for heresy risk. Is there a tradition starting with Archimedes through Copernicus and Galileo where they are just disagreeable? Reading about the soviet purges, it's almost as if they had a simple idea that implied a few consequent beliefs that allowed parties to signal alignment to each other, and then encouraged coordinated aggression against anyone not sufficiently on s…

It's happening in the West right now!

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#40

Post by throwaway0a5e »

inglor_cz wrote: post #31
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> institutional pressures can be put on them to make them change their mind. Which is a weird and arbitrary location to draw the line considering how those institutions tend to lean on other issues, or even the same issue in a slightly different context.

I wasn't trying to draw any line anywhere. It is notoriously hard to draw any lines when it comes to disabilities.

I'm saying it's a weird spot for them to draw a line.
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