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The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

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Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#21

Post by mannykannot »

inglor_cz wrote: post #8
woodruffw wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gene therapy and eugenics are different things. CRISPR falls under the former.

They overlap, though. Or, more precisely, gene therapy can be used as a means to achieve certain eugenic ends . If, in 2030 or 2050, it will be possible to use CRISPR or another newer technology to edit out detrimental alleles out of someone's DNA safely, the end effect on the genetic pool of humanity is going to be very similar to the one that eugenicists tried to achieve via more primitive means.

If all that eugenics was or is concerned with was the removal of some harmful alleles by consensual methods, and it was not a pile of often racist bullshit falsely claiming to be based on what is actually solid science, it would not have a bad name.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#22

Post by moron4hire »

d0mine wrote: post #20
ch4s3 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t recall anyone being sent to work camps for criticizing government policy in the US recently.

McCarthyism? (it is not 30s like in the article but it is 40s-50s)

Weird definition of "recently".

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#23

Post by newsclues »

ch4s3 wrote: post #19
hushpuppy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad we live in a era were accusations and rumors are not used as political weapons against individuals.

I don’t recall anyone being sent to work camps for criticizing government policy in the US recently.

Work camps are just the extreme of the policies that we have yet to implement. We seem to be lubing the slippery slope towards it though, with political correctness and cancel culture.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#24

Post by subroutine »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #18
gardin1 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doi + scihub: https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.2307/2500602

is there a way to read this article on an iphone? sorry for my device with very limited abilities, i didn't choose it for myself. the original article has some kind of banner over the content, and this link only shows the cover page for me.

https://moscow.sci-hub.se/2912/e557ad01807ac82351e1cec98b2b9...

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#25

Post by mannykannot »

thesz wrote: post #16
simonh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He was vindicated by modern science. He denied that genetic heritability existed and that all characteristics were propagated epigenetically. That's hardly been vindicated. In practice his theories and practical policies were utterly disastrous. It is true that since then we have found some mechanisms by which some traits can propagate epigenetically, but characterising that as vindicating Lysenkoism is absurd.

I believe he denied existence of genes, not heretability of traits.

His theories were mostly pseudoscientific nonsense - but that alone is not particularly harmful. What was evil about him is that he literally destroyed other people’s lives, his most prominent victim being Vavilov.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#26

Post by peace4all »

ch4s3 wrote: post #19
hushpuppy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad we live in a era were accusations and rumors are not used as political weapons against individuals.

I don’t recall anyone being sent to work camps for criticizing government policy in the US recently.

They weren't necessary sent to work camps. Some were just fired and couldn't get hired. Later, in 1950's & 60's, you would be effectively banned from career. Sometimes librarians would paint black their name if they were in references section. Since 1960's victims of these political battles could go to other institutions, probably at less important position.

This practice continued all the way till the collapse of the USSR, I heard of such stories in Moscow universities, and in the Academy of Science.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#27

Post by [deleted] »

inglor_cz wrote: post #5
christkv wrote: post #2

Reminds me of Lysenkoism where one mans delusions of science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism set back the discourse as it was enforced as state policy.

I wonder where we are now. Long shadows of Hitler and eugenics do certainly have a chilling effect on research of intelligence etc. This article published last year in the New Yorker goes into details. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressiv... I get the political unease that surrounds such topics, but with things like CRISPR making gene editing possible, we could improve inborn traits in living…

[deleted]

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#28

Post by inglor_cz »

mannykannot wrote: post #21
inglor_cz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They overlap, though. Or, more precisely, gene therapy can be used as a means to achieve certain eugenic ends . If, in 2030 or 2050, it will be possible to use CRISPR or another newer technology to edit out detrimental alleles out of someone's DNA safely, the end effect on the genetic pool of humanity is going to be very similar to the one that eugenicists tried to achieve via more primitive means.

If all that eugenics was or is concerned with was the removal of some harmful alleles by consensual methods, and it was not a pile of often racist bullshit falsely claiming to be based on what is actually solid science, it would not have a bad name.

There is a lot of stuff in between.

For example, Down syndrome can be practically eradicated by selectively aborting aneuploid embryos. Of course, the embryo cannot consent, and while the parents can, institutional pressures can be put on them to make them change their mind.

Countries like Iceland and Denmark abort almost all Down syndrome embryos. This article in The Atlantic does not seem to be completely OK with that, and The Atlantic is pretty representative for East Coast liberal viewpoints.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-las...

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#29

Post by throwaway0a5e »

inglor_cz wrote: post #28
mannykannot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all that eugenics was or is concerned with was the removal of some harmful alleles by consensual methods, and it was not a pile of often racist bullshit falsely claiming to be based on what is actually solid science, it would not have a bad name.

There is a lot of stuff in between. For example, Down syndrome can be practically eradicated by selectively aborting aneuploid embryos. Of course, the embryo cannot consent, and while the parents can, institutional pressures can be put on them to make them change their mind. Countries like Iceland and Denmark abort almost all Down syndrome embryos. This article in The Atlantic does not seem to be completely OK with t…

> institutional pressures can be put on them to make them change their mind.

Which is a weird and arbitrary location to draw the line considering how those institutions tend to lean on other issues, or even the same issue in a slightly different context.

Re: The 1936-1937 Purge of Soviet Astronomers (1991)

#30

Post by MisterTea »

newsclues wrote: post #23
ch4s3 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t recall anyone being sent to work camps for criticizing government policy in the US recently.

Work camps are just the extreme of the policies that we have yet to implement. We seem to be lubing the slippery slope towards it though, with political correctness and cancel culture.

> Work camps are just the extreme of the policies that we have yet to implement.

Yet to? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat...

> We seem to be lubing the slippery slope towards it though, with political correctness and cancel culture.

No we are not.

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