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A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

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Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#161

Post by heavyset_go »

hilbert42 wrote: post #134
throwaway20382 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I urge people who have a problem with drinking and wish to quit, who for whatever reason do not feel that 12 step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous" I urge people to see an addiction specialist first. Do not see AA first. See a doctor asap. This disease is serious and has a high fatality rate. AA meetings are like a club after you have it under control (EG. don't attend drunk). Disulfiram: An old military drug. Thi…

"Rehab: Good short term, bad long term. Rehab failure rate is over %90." That's if you can even get the person into rehab at all! Just before last Christmas we buried a good longtime friend and colleague who'd died of liver cirrhosis. Nothing we did could get him into rehab. 'So what' you may say - he was just one more of many thousands. The trouble was that he was also an organic chemist by training yet even with th…

With regard to your point, most alcoholics and addicts will tell you that their substances of choice end up making them feel "normal", whereas other people can feel "normal" without substances.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#162

Post by bee_rider »

xanaxagoras wrote: post #122
bee_rider wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any medically backed information on the idea that alcoholism is an allergic reaction to alcohol? I mean -- it doesn't seem like a great analogy, but I don't generally have an uncontrollable desire to overindulge in cat dander and pollen, personally.

It's an adverse, life threatening physical reaction that reliably occurs in a small subset of the population when a specific chemical is ingested. I'm not an immunologist and my understanding of alcohol allergy comes 100% from AA and the work done by 2 doctors in the 1930s. I expect the science has changed considerably since then but if the term "allergy" has evolved to no longer include this case, I believe that the…

I'm a layman but I think it is pretty well known that allergies typically come from an immune system over-reaction.

I'm not saying AA should be tossed out (it has helped people I care about), it just seems weird to stick to using a pretty well understood word wrong. This is not a grand philosophical statement, just a matter of not using intentionally confusing lingo. If there's anyone out there who actually thinks it is an allergy, they should understand that current research into treating allergies won't help them, that specialists who treat allergies are the wrong ones to go to, etc etc. Surely there's a better word for a physiologically based tendency toward addictions.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#163

Post by netizen-936824 »

emerged wrote: post #58
fitba72 wrote: post #30

Need to point out that the disease theory of addiction is hotly debated in the US. Not so much in developed countries where socialized medicine is available, where the theory is widely discounted. Those interested should take a look at the work of Stanton Peele.

I’d imagine most addiction occurs when the body has a natural imbalance in certain neurotransmitters (GABA), so it seeks a way to adjust the balance (alcohol). Seems fair to call that natural imbalance a disease.

You're onto something there. These imbalances (rather, deviation from the average in terms of various regulatory pathways) are absolutely key to differences not only in personality but perspective, cognitive abilities, and as you mention propensity to use psychoactive substances. I've been thinking something similar for a while now, that most people with addictions to psychoactive are likely attempting to correct for something.

Not to mention, most of the illegal compounds have pharmacological activity that would be nearly impossible to get from a prescription for most people.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#164

Post by bee_rider »

gitfan86 wrote: post #65
bee_rider wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any medically backed information on the idea that alcoholism is an allergic reaction to alcohol? I mean -- it doesn't seem like a great analogy, but I don't generally have an uncontrollable desire to overindulge in cat dander and pollen, personally.

No. Allergic reactions are the immune system responding to a substance in a hypersensitive way[1]. There is however a genetic component to how people respond to alcohol. Some people after having 1 drink have a strong desire to continue drinking to blackout levels. Others are more likely to feel sick or sleepy after 2 drinks and have a desire to stop. It isn't an immune system reaction, but it is a reaction. The AA co…

This is what I thought.

Hypothetically I guess it could have been the case that... I dunno, an allergic reaction to alcohol could produce a different type of experience for the person who'd ingested it, which could have been subtly more enjoyable, which could have resulted in a tendency toward alcoholism. That would have been interesting, as tinkering with the immune system could have been a path toward preventing that skew.

I think AA really works for some people. Not sure why they decided to stick with this confusing lingo, though.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#165

Post by alar44 »

hilbert42 wrote: post #154
callalex wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”I find the effect of even a little alcohol both disturbing and mind-dulling and I deliberately avoid getting into that state. On the other hand, the alcoholic either experiences different physical effects from alcohol than I do and or his/her visceral perception of those physical effects of the alcohol are very different to mine.” As an alcoholic I think an often overlooked aspect is the opposite of this: how it fe…

Right, what you said makes sense. Essentially, it's the same thing, that is, we're feeling at our best in opposite states. My perception of the world and state of mind seems better to me sans ethanol, yours is the opposite. But that doesn't mean it's a bed of roses for me, it's just that ethanol doesn't work for me to make things better. This is a very complex matter of which millions of words have already been writt…

Not sure how your missing the fact that people drink to shut off or dull their senses. No one drinks to become smarter or more perceptive. The very point is to get your brain to chill out in a sense, unwind, relax, etc.

Also a 2% increase in alcohol content isn't noticeable in any way other than MAYBE taste (and I'm sure most people wouldn't even notice that).

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#166

Post by alar44 »

blenderdt wrote: post #20
tom899 wrote: post #14

I am an alcoholic myself, sober for five months now after a long-term therapy. I am sceptical about taking meds for this desease. The change of life and coping with stress is the best way to avoid getting in relapse of use. The therapists said meds might be a help, but are not the solution. Its a trap for the dependant who might think now hes cured and does not find himself changing his life and solving problems whic…

Multiple studies have shown that alcohol sits in the top two of most destructive harddrugs for both the user and the user's surrounding. And still we can buy it everywhere. Like you say: the drinking culture must change.

> the drinking culture must change.

Why? Because a small fraction of people can't handle alcohol? If you don't want to drink, don't. But don't tell me how to live.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#167

Post by hilbert42 »

JonShartwell wrote: post #153
hilbert42 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Rehab: Good short term, bad long term. Rehab failure rate is over %90." That's if you can even get the person into rehab at all! Just before last Christmas we buried a good longtime friend and colleague who'd died of liver cirrhosis. Nothing we did could get him into rehab. 'So what' you may say - he was just one more of many thousands. The trouble was that he was also an organic chemist by training yet even with th…

I have been in and out of AA (thankfully in a good place currently) and I think this idea that addicts are fundamentally different from everyone else is a complete myth that only makes people with addiction problems feel more hopeless and separate from society. Have you ever had a harmful habit you have had difficulty breaking, or been unable to do something that you know will improve your health? Then you can relate…

"...I think this idea that addicts are fundamentally different from everyone else is a complete myth"

That's absolutely not what I said, nor what I intended. Of course, addicts aren't any different to anyone else in the general sense (that of being human beings).

Nevertheless, their worldview is different to mine and to that of others - no two worldviews are the same, everyone has a fundamentally different worldview or we'd all be clones.

Yes, like everyone else, I have my addictions - cravings for certain foods, rich cheeses, certain types of cakes and so on but I simply never buy them or my belt would be about four notches larger. I'm constantly aware that I can't afford to give in to temptation and it's stressful.

However, that doesn't stop me looking at these foods and drooling over them whenever I go shopping.

Same with coffee: I drink coffee so strong that no normal person would ever touch it. Unlike those other foods mentioned, I do imbibe in this superstrong coffee and I have no intention of giving it up even though I know that it is not good for me.

The difference between my food addictions and alcohol addiction is the sheer scale of the damage alcohol does to the individuals involved not to mention the havoc it does to their families and to society at large.

Comparing my food addictions to alcohol or full-blown opiate addiction is a non sequitur, essentially there is no comparison even though they all initially started out as the cravings of one's mind. By comparison, my food addiction compared to alcohol or opiate addiction is like comparing a pop gun to an AK47.

We must be very careful when we equate all addictions down to a commom cause - one's craving mind and then proceed to imply that in the end there's little to differentiate between them. To say there's little between them is postmodernist nonsense in its extreme and it's very dangerous thinking. In the end, black is black and white is white and not some shade of nondescript amorphous gray.

That said, I'll restate the fact that I've just watched a longtime friend die of alcoholic poisoning and I've great sympathy for anyone who's in the grip of alcoholism.

If you think I'm being a righteous bastard for saying what I've just said then I can only say that it's definitely not true. I am only too well aware that there's the thinnest of thin lines between me (and most of us) and the alcoholic or opiate addict - or the haplessly addicted and desperate gambler.

As the old truism states, it is only but for the grace of one's deity go thee.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#168

Post by hilbert42 »

heavyset_go wrote: post #161
hilbert42 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Rehab: Good short term, bad long term. Rehab failure rate is over %90." That's if you can even get the person into rehab at all! Just before last Christmas we buried a good longtime friend and colleague who'd died of liver cirrhosis. Nothing we did could get him into rehab. 'So what' you may say - he was just one more of many thousands. The trouble was that he was also an organic chemist by training yet even with th…

With regard to your point, most alcoholics and addicts will tell you that their substances of choice end up making them feel "normal", whereas other people can feel "normal" without substances.

I know, this is the utter tragedy of it.

Like others I've no additional wisdom to add except to say we need science to urgently find a less dangerous psychotropic substitute for ethanol - if such a substitute is actually possible.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#169

Post by heavyset_go »

hilbert42 wrote: post #168
heavyset_go wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regard to your point, most alcoholics and addicts will tell you that their substances of choice end up making them feel "normal", whereas other people can feel "normal" without substances.

I know, this is the utter tragedy of it. Like others I've no additional wisdom to add except to say we need science to urgently find a less dangerous psychotropic substitute for ethanol - if such a substitute is actually possible.

Alcohol acts a lot like benzodiazepines in the brain, and it inhibits the serotonin transporter like SSRIs do, and it has NDRI-like action, as well. Personally, I think a lot of alcohol consumption is self-medicating to treat symptoms that could be treated with drugs with better safety profiles. Of course, self-medication with addictive substances leads to physical dependence, making it harder to substitute other drugs for alcohol after awhile.

I'm friends with someone who went from multiple organ failure in the hospital from chronic alcoholism, to recovery with psychiatric treatment, and it seems like GABAergics like gabapentin and an SSRI help them feel okay without alcohol. At least in the US, this can be prohibitively expensive, and they're stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of medical debt, but that beats being dead.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#170

Post by hilbert42 »

alar44 wrote: post #165
hilbert42 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, what you said makes sense. Essentially, it's the same thing, that is, we're feeling at our best in opposite states. My perception of the world and state of mind seems better to me sans ethanol, yours is the opposite. But that doesn't mean it's a bed of roses for me, it's just that ethanol doesn't work for me to make things better. This is a very complex matter of which millions of words have already been writt…

Not sure how your missing the fact that people drink to shut off or dull their senses. No one drinks to become smarter or more perceptive. The very point is to get your brain to chill out in a sense, unwind, relax, etc. Also a 2% increase in alcohol content isn't noticeable in any way other than MAYBE taste (and I'm sure most people wouldn't even notice that).

I haven't missed that point, see my comment to heavyset. It's not possible to cover every topic in these posts. If you want a more extensive view of my thoughs on these matters then you could search through my long-winded boring posts on the opioid epidemic, oxycontin, Purdue and the Sacklers and the miscarriage of justice - and the abject failure of the FDA to stop the epidemic (there are many of them). Better still, just take my word that I'm well aware of the issues.

I will disagree with you over the matter of the 2%. This extra ethanol does make a considerable difference and has been shown to do so for a number of reasons some quite complex that I cannot do justice to here. However, I'll mention a quick one for starters: the extra few percent spitit is significant as it often masks the high level of acids in young wine (malic, latic, bytric, sorbic, tartaric, etc.) with the consequence that many people drink considerably more wine in one go. Thus, they not only get the extra 2% ethanol but also an addotional amount from the extra wine they've consumed (and remember this wine already 2% stronger).

The acid levels drops significantly in older wines that have been left to age so that problem doesn't happen with them. Winemakers now actively cultivate and promote this high-alcohol, soft-style wine and they've been very successful in doing so over the last 30 or so years. It saves huge inventories of wine from being stored by over three years or more (there's much saved moolah there).

This then actively discourages research into producing flavorsome wines with much lower alcohol (at present, reducing the ethanol content to 10% or lower makes the wine thinnish in character and it spoils easily). Much oenological research is needed to boost the body and flavor in low alcohol wines and at the moment there's precious little incentive to provide money for this research. It urgently needs government intervention and regulation to overcome the problem.

BTW, decades ago I worked in a vinyard/winery for a short while.

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