The people I know who like to drink the most are also people I would say are highly anxious, which makes me wonder if they're using alcohol as self medication. Just an informal observation---not claiming a universal truth here.
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A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
121–130 of 187 posts
Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
#122There is absolutely no sense in which antabuse "cures alcoholism", I really can't think of a worse way to put that. All it does is cause a violent physical reaction when alcohol is consumed. Alcoholism is an umbrella term for 2 co-occurring disorders, one physical and one mental. On the physical side, alcohol produces an allergy which manifests as an intense physical craving for more alcohol - craving in the sense of…
Is there any medically backed information on the idea that alcoholism is an allergic reaction to alcohol? I mean -- it doesn't seem like a great analogy, but I don't generally have an uncontrollable desire to overindulge in cat dander and pollen, personally.
It's an adverse, life threatening physical reaction that reliably occurs in a small subset of the population when a specific chemical is ingested. I'm not an immunologist and my understanding of alcohol allergy comes 100% from AA and the work done by 2 doctors in the 1930s. I expect the science has changed considerably since then but if the term "allergy" has evolved to no longer include this case, I believe that the evolution left behind something of critical importance to millions of people and replaced it with nothing.
The term itself is less important than the understanding it conveys both to the afflicted and a judgemental public. The alcoholic craving is not similar to desire, there is no agency involved, and you can't think or will your way out of it. I have extensive personal experience with basically every other treatment modality for alcoholism that modern medicine has to offer and the allergy/obsession framework is the reason I am alive. It's not just me. The rooms of AA are filled with people who have tried everything else and been failed by it; nobody wants to wind up in AA.
At any rate, if it's not an allergy anymore, it's something else in it's own category that is indistinguishable from an allergy to laymen.
Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't speak for all of AA obviously but I've been heavily involved in it for decades now. This is definitely one of those "all models are wrong but some models are useful" situations with the allergy thing. Most individuals either find that model sufficiently useful that they don't need to expand it. Or, they're more or less fully aware of the gaps but still find that model useful. Or they don't find it useful and…
I really appreciate your response and respect your experience. I'm very happy for people that have been able to make positive changes in their lives and I'm not suggesting anyone stop doing AA if it works for them. It would be great if there was a sister organization to AA that was more of a group therapy session, without the spirituality and alcohol abstinence components. But maybe that wouldn't work, since there wo…
There's all kinds of stuff like that. They don't help. The only sober people at those types of things either use it as an adjunct to their 12 step program or aren't actually alcoholic.
Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
#124Given the extremely strong negative reaction to alcohol that patients who are taking Disulfiram experience and given that this is apparently the sole effect that alcohol abuse cessation treatment using it relies on, it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane. I quit drinking after more than 25 years of problematic drinking using naltrexone (The Sinclair Method) and, given my experience with alc…
What happens if you are on naltrexone and you get hit by a bus and need surgery.
Is there a problem where the anesthetic won’t work?
Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could it be that one of AA's goals is the creation of a population of donors to keep their organization funded, just like any other organized religious group? This would explain the reluctance to admit that alcohol addiction is not a 'lifelong disease' that requires lifetime committment to AA, wouldn't it? Regardless, promoting bogus scientific claims in the name of social good does actual harm to people. It's one of…
I think it is a stretch to think that this is a money making endeavor. Scams to make money like MLMs and Scientology prioritize payment over adherence to the tenants of the organization. And the leaders are paid millions of dollars and live luxurious lives. AA is more like the Salvation Army. It is a group that clearly believes things that are not scientifically true, but most people join with good intentions.
I don't know much about the Salvation Army beyond hearing their name in passing, but what are their scientifically false beliefs?
I looked at the "Beliefs" section of their Wikipedia page but couldn't find, after 1 min or so of looking, a clearly stated scientifically false belief.
Are you referring to this, which sounds similar to AA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salvation_Army#Adult_Rehab...
Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
#126Disulfiram, the subject of this article, has also shown promise in treating persistent or otherwise treatment-resistant Lyme disease: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03891667
Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
What I object to is religious types trying to use bad science to back up their agenda. Science is not a matter of faith, and it's a complete perversion of the basic concept of scientific inquiry to promote false claims simply because of their claimed utility. That's a dishonest and manipulative strategy at best, and I doubt any good will come of it. Of course, science provides no ultimate answers of the type religiou…
Well, in this case "their agenda" is helping people out of deep addiction. What do you gain by opposing that? We aren't disinterested third parties here pushing an agenda on other people, this is US, working for ourselves. Who are you? Expecting people to abandon a belief that they can plausibly claim has saved their life because it isn't scientifically true is a radical ideology . Very much good has come from it, tr…
there are a few layers to "AA".
first there's the philosophy itself and all the associated dogma and religious aspects. I found this pretty weird and not my cup of tea, but I have no problem with it existing and people adhering to it if it helps them.
then there's the community. thirteenth stepping aside, these are mostly people genuinely trying to help themselves and others. I noticed some odd things, like some AA meetings banning the mention of drug use (?) and the fact that people are often preaching total abstinence in between gulps of coffee and drags off a cigarette. but whatever, not a big deal. what was a big deal to me was the attitude some members take towards people who don't find success with the process. the big book is quite clear that it does not claim to have a solution for everyone, only one that worked for the writer. and yet I often heard some variation of "it works if you work it" if I voiced anything like this, the implication being that it would work for me too, if only I tried harder, surrendered more fully, etc. very toxic imo, not sure if all meetings are like this, but it was a persistent theme in the ones I went to.
but the biggest issue I have with AA is not the philosophy/organization/community, but its place in recovery in general. it's not just the default option; it's often the only one. you really have to dive deep to find any alternatives. even if you pay to see a psychiatrist or therapist, they will often just tell you to go to meetings, maybe prescribe some suboxone/naltrexone if you're lucky. rehabs (the ones that will take your insurance at least) are heavily based on the AA model. some of the lazier ones basically are just a series of AA meetings that you can't get away from. it sucks all the proverbial air out of the room. on top of all that, the relationship with ostensibly secular government (ie, court-ordered meeting attendance) is highly inappropriate.
this was a pretty negative comment, so I want to be clear that I do respect what you do. "free" and "works for some people, at least" is a pretty hard combo to beat when it comes to recovery. I don't want to pressure anyone to change something that helps them with such a serious problem. I do wish that, as a group, AA would just stay in its lane though. it should not have the relationship with government and medicine that it currently does.
Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
#128Given the extremely strong negative reaction to alcohol that patients who are taking Disulfiram experience and given that this is apparently the sole effect that alcohol abuse cessation treatment using it relies on, it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane. I quit drinking after more than 25 years of problematic drinking using naltrexone (The Sinclair Method) and, given my experience with alc…
Antabuse is a way to stop drinking for a period for whatever reason, maybe you have surgery in two weeks and the doctor says you must stop but you can't. No one in danger of having seizures from withdrawels should suddenly stop. I took Antabuse when I wasn't a very bad alcoholic and I stopped for two weeks. Later, when I was much worse, I would shake in the morning until I got a drink. At that point cessation therapy…
Antabuse helped me quiting few years a go. It wasn't THE solution but one of the components in my success. It felt liberating that I didn't have to think that could/should I have a drink. That door was closed.
Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
#129Tips on how to read a science paper like this that involves mice or rats and makes lots of implicit and explicit bd claims about relevance to humans: (from of a card carrying neurogeneticist who uses mice and rats to study the biology and treatment of human diseases, specifically alcoholism and substance use disorders) Step 1: Go to Methods section of the paper and check the SEX, AGE, and TYPE(s) of mice or rats that…
Thank you. This kind of easy to follow step-by-step breakdown of the method section should be included as an obligatory abstract of its own if one really is willing about improving the readability for people outside of the field. It actually takes a lot of time (most people don't have) in identifying all the technical terms and then to recognize what their actual experiments/basis were so that one can actually follow…
It’s not for lay people. It’s a technical paper. No different than saying anyone should be able to read the source code of Apache.
Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
"...it is my belief that the treatment is unconscionable and inhumane." Likewise. Fortunately, I'm not an alcoholic nor have I ever been one but it's always been my understanding that disulfiram was a pretty brutal way of dealing with the problem. I've seen pharmacology texts written in the 1960s warn of the dangers of disulfiram (I had the impression that by the end of the 1950s it was already recognized as a brute…
My recollection is that accumulation of aldehyde is also the danger of consuming methanol.
> My recollection is that accumulation of aldehyde is also the danger of consuming methanol.
I assume you mean ethanol, because methanol is highly poisonous (even a fraction of a shot will make you go blind).
But yes, alcohol is broken down into acetaldehyde.