A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem • Hacker News Board

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#791

Post by jrm4 » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 8:27 PM UTC

elptacek wrote: post #657

jrm4 wrote: post #114

I'd suppose the thing I'd warn here: Remember that, by definition, this article was written by a failure -- meaning that the likelihood that they fully understand the situation even now is still pretty low; especially since they're still likely in a sense seeking validation by writing the article. Ideally, you'd like to hear from a success. And at the risk being the horn-tooter, (married for 15+ years), when I read t…

I'll bite. We're coming up on our 24th anniversary. I will likely regret this, but this is what I have learned. 1. Misery is a function of expectations management. As is said, every relationship is different. Expectations could range everywhere from "You are an adult and this is your house, too. Clean up after yourself like an adult who owns a house." to what is common in our house, "Housework gets done when it gets…

This is terrific, and resonates strongly. Pretty much only thing I'd perhaps slightly modify is that 5 to 1 deal; why this may not resonate with others is that you can come into it with a high or low threshold for this sort of thing based on lots of factors -- how you grew up yourself and certain social pressures may make you more sensitive to (or resilient to?) certain types of negativity. Point is, YMMV on that ratio.

(but yeah, I do live where there's roaches, and it's definitely "do literally just enough so that there's no roaches" here ) :)

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#792

Post by JoeJonathan » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 9:56 PM UTC

qiskit wrote: post #202

Cerium wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years ago I learned this lesson about marriage while on a trip in South Western China. I joined a tour group to see a mountain for a few days. My party was six and the van sat eight, so the driver got another couple to join us. They were fascinating. We learned over meals together that they were an arraigned marriage. At the time I had extremely negative views around the practice, thanks to growing up in the USA wher…

> At the time I had extremely negative views around the practice, thanks to growing up in the USA where we celebrate our freedom to choose the perfect partner. For most of american history, "arranged" marriages were the norm and was based in communal, religous and practical realities. The disneyified idea of marriage is a modern PR invention primarily to get more business activity. Just like the idea of proposing wit…

> For most of american history, "arranged" marriages were the norm

Were they? First-wave feminists made serious headway in challenging marriage norms as early as the 1850s/60s. The language of "soulmate" comes from this period, and was Spiritualist way of rationalizing divorce from your partner for someone you truly loved.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#793

Post by agota » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 1:19 AM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #611

Twounwhe wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will not venture a guess as to whether the author's wife articulated her feelings and needs clearly because I do not know either of them. However, I can say that in my own life, I have been quite explicit about how I was feeling multiple times. In my own words: " When you {seemingly insignificant thing} that I've mentioned bothers me, it makes me feel like you don't care about my concerns, and only care about yours…

>Even so, it usually took repeating half a dozen times or more before my significant other exhibited any reaction beyond dismissal (i.e. moving past "It's just a cup. It shouldn't bother you."). At least you actually repeated yourself half a dozen times. Many people would throw a fit about "you're not listening" before then.

You seem to be implying that it's irrational to be upset about having to repeat yourself if you haven't yet repeated yourself at least six times?

If you need to repeat yourself half a dozen times to get any reaction beyond dismissal, it's reasonable to conclude that the other person is indeed not listening.

In fact, it's reasonable to conclude that they just don't care, and that it's time to move on.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#794

Post by _69x2 » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 1:31 AM UTC

felipesoc wrote: post #489

js2 wrote: post #445

A lot of folks are misinterpreting this article, or just using it as a jumping off point to get something off their chest. This article is not literally about the dirty dish. It's not even about compromise. Rather, the article is really about having healthy communication with your partner. The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." But he wasn't hearing it. No…

He dismissed her feelings, she did communicate that it annoyed her but he thought "it shouldn't annoy her, it's really not a big deal". He tried to reason about her feelings from his own and came to the conclusion that he was right and she shouldn't feel the way she did. And that kind of thinking surely doesn't stop with dishes. He must have done that on all aspects of their relationship

The Atlantic should add this comment to the article as a TL;DR.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#795

Post by agota » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 1:43 AM UTC

antiterra wrote: post #485

js2 wrote: post #445

A lot of folks are misinterpreting this article, or just using it as a jumping off point to get something off their chest. This article is not literally about the dirty dish. It's not even about compromise. Rather, the article is really about having healthy communication with your partner. The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." But he wasn't hearing it. No…

> The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." Too often for me, I have tried to figure out a solution to a problem, when someone was just trying to let me know how they feel. I think there’s some sort of an analogy around a leaky canoe. Like: Is the person hoping for a friendly wave, some hints on stopping the leak or for you to get into the canoe and help bail…

>Too often for me, I have tried to figure out a solution to a problem, when someone was just trying to let me know how they feel

John Gray addressed this in "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" - I believe he argued that this is the #1 mistake men make in relationships.

IIRC, he also argued that the #1 mistake women make in relationships was trying to help men by giving unsolicited advice.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#796

Post by agota » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 2:02 AM UTC

AlanYx wrote: post #304

RobertRoberts wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory I use that helps me with this, the "million dollar gun to the head" theory. Would either of them stop fighting instantly if there as a gun to their heads or offered a million dollars? If the answer is "yes", then it's entirely within their control to solve the problem. The only people I think that fail this are psychopaths, and I think those are rare.

If you don't have experience with people prone to emotional dysregulation, it's hard to appreciate how it works, but you don't need to resort to such an artificial scenario like your gun scenario. People with some personality disorders can be triggered by seemingly little things into anger/rage states for 4-6 hours that cannot be resolved by talking them out, but if someone outside the household (i.e., someone who is…

I came to a conclusion that people who genuinely can't control themselves due to extremely low impulse control tend to end up in prison.

Those who claim that they "can't control themselves" yet somehow manage to be functional adults are lying - they can control themselves, they just can't be bothered.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#797

Post by agota » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 2:17 AM UTC

openknot wrote: post #678

llbeansandrice wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the ex-spouse at least has an iota responsibility to identify the feelings of neglect, rather than pointing out the neglectful habits without reflecting on why she was so bothered them. While this isn't really wrong I think it just derails what the main point of the article is. >'big issues' (e.g. never cheating) This baseline of "at least I don't cheat" or "at least I can provide" (implicitly saying things like "at…

I agree that the baseline isn't enough. My intention was to summarize his initial perspective (that it was enough), then question whether his self-criticism (he's a "shitty husband" because he didn't see it soon enough) draws the right conclusions. My view is that I don't think it's healthy for him to take all the blame. He had a responsibility to care more, but his spouse also had the opportunity to communicate abou…

>but his spouse also had the opportunity to communicate about her feelings of neglect

According to the article:

"Hundreds, maybe thousands, of times, my wife tried to communicate that something was wrong. That something hurt. But that doesn’t make sense, I thought. I’m not trying to hurt her; therefore, she shouldn’t feel hurt"

At what point it's okay to stop "trying to communicate" and just leave?

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#798

Post by agota » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 2:30 AM UTC

treis wrote: post #211

jayski wrote: post #24

Im 99% sure the wife in this story used the glass as an excuse to get out. If youre happy with the life youve built together and love your partner theres no way you leave it over something like this. I dont buy the "it shows disrespect" argument. Shes going to be with somebody else in a years time. But when youre in a bad situation and the other person isn't giving you a good reason to leave sometimes you have to get…

Projecting a lot, I feel like this guy is just a narcissist. Kind of making it all about him but in a way that doesn't portray him in a truly negative light. Also, guessing his ex-wife probably doesn't want a book about her divorce to be part of the national chatter.

That's my question:

Did this guy's ex-wife agree to be a subject of a blog, articles in major publications, and a book??

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#799

Post by agota » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 2:33 AM UTC

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #677

op00to wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only defamation if the statement is false and you can prove some sort of harm was done. Really? You can’t write about anyone else? How do newspapers exist? Biographies?

This is a marriage. They are not celebrities. He is profiting from the dissolution of a marriage with a one sided narrative.

Him monetizing his divorce like that is disturbing if the wife didn't agree to this.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#800

Post by agota » Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 2:51 AM UTC

phatfish wrote: post #644

maweaver wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am have found that since I started working from home due to covid, a neat house is much more important to me. It makes me anxious being in a house all day that is a mess. And I have become the one who bugs my wife to please pick up after herself more. I wonder if women traditionally spending more time at home is the cause of this gender difference.

My guess is there is a "feng shui" side to cleanliness, tripping over clothes or having a sink full of dishes is more likely to affect you if you are in contact with it more often. But also i think there is a biological reason. Mothers notice dangers to young children more, as on an evolutionary time scale they were responsible for protecting a child from birth, when the child is most vulnerable. Keeping things clean…

I have the same theory on women having been selected for caring about their environment.

I see that as an argument for choosing traditional gender roles because it seems to me that one of the main causes of conflict in 50/50 relationships are these arguments about chores, tidiness, etc.

Splitting chores 50/50 seems like asking for trouble given that men and women have evolved differently in this regard - he ends up feeling that she's endlessly nagging him, she ends up feeling that she has to manage him like a child.

Seems like the traditional breadwinner/homemaker setup would be a solution to this problem.