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Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

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Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#131

Post by unfocussed_mike »

optymizer wrote: post #117

Former Amazonian. I didn't renegotiate the non-competes and I wouldn't stress much about this. To my knowledge, this is one of those overly broad statements they put into the contract because it's advantageous to them and to reserve the right to sue the "VP of something" who took the knowledge and ran away. They won't act on it for your regular employees because it costs them money to do so and developers _routinely_…

> They won't act on it for your regular employees because it costs them money to do so and developers _routinely_ jump ship, though they want you to know that they technically have the power to because you signed that contract.

This kind of thinking is exactly why these clauses get worse and worse and worse over time, I'm afraid.

People should be prepared to argue the toss over every single line of an employment contract, and seek advice for every single line.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#132

Post by nickjj »

ozzythecat wrote: post #71

I can’t answer your specific question, but I would really encourage you to think more about the AWS offer. Having spent a decade at Amazon, across several organizations, I don’t recommend it as a place to work. There was a NYTimes article about the company in 2015. Everything there still reflects the day to day culture of the company. For me Amazon took an unprecedented toll on my mental and physical health. I did ea…

> I did earn enough money, but I immensely regret all the time I didn’t spend with my family over the years

How many hours a week did you average at work? A lot of tech jobs will expect working 9-6. If it was over 40-45, did the money scale linearly to the hours you put in? If it was 40-45 then it's equal to most other jobs except with higher compensation?

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#133

Post by jandrese »

xienze wrote: post #124
d4mi3n wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons I'm unlikely to leave the state until other parts of the US make similar determinations. It boggles me that we allow employers to have so much control over an employees life after they have left said organization .

You really have to “be somebody” in order to have a non-compete enforced against you. If you’re like most people the company you left couldn’t care less where you go. Yes yes, there’s exceptions, but in general they’re rarely enforced.

But if your old boss was a total dick and that's why you left then he might try to enforce it. Leaving yourself open to expensive legal action isn't smart. Even though they would likely lose the case (noncompetes are on shaky legal footing) you still lose many hours and legal fees fighting it.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#134

Post by jandrese »

rsstack wrote: post #26
MeNotLawyer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious then what people do when they leave AWS. Do they just not work for 18 months?

They hope AWS won't enforce it. If you aren't very important (L7+, senior management), and you don't work on the _same exact_ project at a competitor, Amazon will probably not attempt to enforce it. Is it right that Amazon are doing this? Hell, no: they're awful for doing this. But that's not even one of the top-five awful things they do to employees.

How would your previous employer even know what you are working on in your new company? It's not like you are going to report back to them.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#136

Post by rosndo »

lucasmullens wrote: post #16
rosndo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosing such a non-compete to a potential employer is such a dumb move that it’s pretty obvious why they would withdraw their offer. Not because the non-compete is scary, but because the potential new hire is clearly an idiot.

I appreciate honest people, especially when they're honest even though it isn't in their best interest.

Easy to say, but I doubt most people would actually let that appreciation affect hiring decisions.

A potential hire might also open up about their casual drug use. Would that be points in their favor vs. the other candidate who might very well also take drugs but chooses to not advertise this irrelevant detail to potential employers?

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#137

Post by jandrese »

vorpalhex wrote: post #126
otterley wrote: post #6

If you’re asking us here in HN, then it’s very unlikely that you have the sort of negotiating power required to get any sizable company to approve a customized set of legal documents relating to your hire. Changes to the standard set of hiring paperwork often require multiple managers and lawyers to sign off on it. For most positions and candidates, the effort isn’t considered worth it. You can certainly ask, but don…

I frequently get exceptions and changes to contracts. This has included me telling I flat out would not sign a particular document. Never actually had it be a blocker or a problem. I'm just an engineer. Lots of people will say it's a problem. They will claim it's going to be a big issue. It isn't. Just stick to your guns. Be polite and be patient. Make it clear you have plenty of time available. I had someone try to…

When I signed the paperwork for my house I stopped to read all of it first. The escrow person then asked my wife if I was a lawyer or an engineer. Apparently nobody else ever reads them before signing.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#139

Post by rsstack »

jandrese wrote: post #134
rsstack wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They hope AWS won't enforce it. If you aren't very important (L7+, senior management), and you don't work on the _same exact_ project at a competitor, Amazon will probably not attempt to enforce it. Is it right that Amazon are doing this? Hell, no: they're awful for doing this. But that's not even one of the top-five awful things they do to employees.

How would your previous employer even know what you are working on in your new company? It's not like you are going to report back to them.

If you're important (VP+), it will be in the news. Otherwise, maybe blog posts. They very rarely enforce this. They mostly try to pressure employees into staying at Amazon with these shitty tricks.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#140

Post by jandrese »

sulam wrote: post #103
anonymousiam wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signing such an agreement for a California job might still affect your ability to relocate to another state for a position with a competitor.

I'd be surprised if their CA employment agreements even have the non-compete in them, and any halfway-competent lawyer will be able to redline that portion as un-enforceable. This is a bedrock rule in CA employment. If it had any enforceability at all, we would know.

What's the punishment for companies that try to put illegal clauses in contracts? If you have the resources to fight it the clause gets nullified but that's about it. Companies aren't generally punished for abusive contracts, or at worst they get some tiny fine.

As long as this is the case they will continue to try pulling crap like this.

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