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It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

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Re: It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

#11

Post by happytoexplain »

notadev wrote: post #10

“You really want to avoid censorship on social networks? Here is the solution: Stop arguing. Play nice. The catch: everyone has to do it at once. I guarantee you, if you do that, there will be NO CENSORSHIP OF ANY TOPIC on any social network.” This is a great idea. If all countries just stopped fighting there’d be no more war!

That's part of the point. "Censorship" in this context is essentially moderation gone wrong (either subjectively or objectively, either by accident or on purpose via a bad actor) so as long as there is content to moderate, there will be "censorship". There are platforms with zero moderation (aside from very surface level stuff, like banning illegal content or off-topic threads) - that space is not starving, but those platforms by their very nature can't be a popular enough option to displace the moderated platforms.

Re: It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

#12

Post by hintymad »

This thread is amazingly good. Yishan’s observation is on the spot:

All my left-wing woke friends are CONVINCED that the social media platforms uphold the white supremacist misogynistic patriarchy, and they have plenty of screenshots and evidence of times when the platform has made enforcement decisions unfairly against innocuous things they've said, and let far more egregious sexist/racist violations by the other side pass.

Woke friends: it's true, right? You have LOTS of examples.

All my alt/center-right/libertarian friends are CONVINCED the social media platforms uphold the woke BLM/Marxist/LGBTQ agenda and they ALSO have plenty of screenshots and evidence of times when the platforms have made enforcement decisions unfair against them for innocuous things they've said merely questioning (in good faith) the woke orthodoxy, and let far more egregious violations by the other side stand. Right-wingers and libertarians: it's true, right? You can remember PLENTY of examples.

Some interesting conclusion too: “They would like you (the users) to stop squabbling over stupid shit and causing drama so that they can spend their time writing more features and not have to adjudicate your stupid little fights.”

Re: It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

#13

Post by a_shovel »

> All my alt/center-right/libertarian friends ... have plenty of screenshots and evidence of times when the platforms have made enforcement decisions unfair against them for innocuous things they've said merely questioning (in good faith) the woke orthodoxy

Whenever I see vague complaints like this, I'm reminded of a twitter user I once encountered. He was conservative, and he was complaining about how the left controlled all of the media and social media, censoring people for arbitrary actions and disallowing speech they didn't agree with, banning people for the most trivial of things. He waxed lyrical about how nobody should let them have this power, how we should resist them at every turn, about the freedom denied to him and those like him.

As I read more, and got more context, it became increasingly clear that he was talking about not being allowed to call people the n-word. (I also found him in the first place in the Emmet Till trend, complaining that it was trending.) What's innocent and acceptable for one group can be unacceptable and offensive for another group, and sometimes the second group has a much better point than the first.

Re: It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

#14

Post by recursivedoubts »

thinkingemote wrote: post #2

"A long thread on how I used to believe in Free Speech but now don't" "Free speech changed, it was about being free to behave badly on certain topics against repressive forces in charge. Now we are in charge, so it's different"

"When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles."

Re: It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

#15

Post by HideousKojima »

hintymad wrote: post #12

This thread is amazingly good. Yishan’s observation is on the spot: All my left-wing woke friends are CONVINCED that the social media platforms uphold the white supremacist misogynistic patriarchy, and they have plenty of screenshots and evidence of times when the platform has made enforcement decisions unfairly against innocuous things they've said, and let far more egregious sexist/racist violations by the other si…

No post body was provided.

Re: It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

#16

Post by happytoexplain »

HideousKojima wrote: post #15
hintymad wrote: post #12

This thread is amazingly good. Yishan’s observation is on the spot: All my left-wing woke friends are CONVINCED that the social media platforms uphold the white supremacist misogynistic patriarchy, and they have plenty of screenshots and evidence of times when the platform has made enforcement decisions unfairly against innocuous things they've said, and let far more egregious sexist/racist violations by the other si…

Quoted post unavailable.

This is very clearly a bad comparison. BLM and LGBT pride rely publicly on positive imagery (regardless of negative examples), while white supremacy and misogyny are inherently negative (there are no positive examples). A more fair comparison (though there really isn't a perfect comparison) would be: Support for BLM and LGBT vs support for police and military. Or, on the negative side: Support for Stalinists and man haters vs support for white supremacists and misogynists. But you chose the less offensive side of "left" things vs the more offensive side of "right" things.

Edit: Note that I have no idea what small supports (like logo changing) social media platforms have committed for any of these groups, left or right. I'm just criticizing your logic.

Re: It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

#17

Post by HideousKojima »

happytoexplain wrote: post #16
HideousKojima wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This is very clearly a bad comparison. BLM and LGBT pride rely publicly on positive imagery (regardless of negative examples), while white supremacy and misogyny are inherently negative (there are no positive examples). A more fair comparison (though there really isn't a perfect comparison) would be: Support for BLM and LGBT vs support for police and military. Or, on the negative side: Support for Stalinists and man…

>But you chose the less offensive side of "left" things vs the more offensive side of "right" things.

I didn't choose them, those are the examples Yishan gave in his tweets

Re: It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

#18

Post by happytoexplain »

HideousKojima wrote: post #17
happytoexplain wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very clearly a bad comparison. BLM and LGBT pride rely publicly on positive imagery (regardless of negative examples), while white supremacy and misogyny are inherently negative (there are no positive examples). A more fair comparison (though there really isn't a perfect comparison) would be: Support for BLM and LGBT vs support for police and military. Or, on the negative side: Support for Stalinists and man…

>But you chose the less offensive side of "left" things vs the more offensive side of "right" things. I didn't choose them, those are the examples Yishan gave in his tweets

He used those examples much more completely, in a more realistic comparison. I would quote it, but it's essentially the entire text hintymad quoted. For example, the phrase "woke BLM/Marxist/LGBTQ agenda" is referring to the bad side of those things (perceived and otherwise), not just e.g. support for gay or black people. He goes on to describe complaints not just of support for one or the other, but specifically the concept of imbalanced moderation between broader ideologies.

Simply put, showing support for LGBT while declining to show support for white supremacy doesn't say much - it says almost nothing, in fact, and therefore can not be held against a person or entity as proof that they do or do not unfairly moderate between the broader cultural categories that those two things fall into. Twitter may certainly skew left (or progressive or liberal or whatever) on moderation calls, but your test is overly simplistic, and seems engineered more for provocation than information.

Re: It is not topics that are censored, it is behaviour

#20

Post by mcphage »

hfbjh wrote: post #9
happytoexplain wrote: post #7

I wish more people could see the complexity of the world's systems, both technical and social (not comprehend it of course - just see that it exists). "Bad faith" is essentially the default tone now. Most of what he's saying makes perfect sense to me. But people will dismiss the entire thing, pointing to weak examples ranging from individual instances of actual bad behavior to honest mistakes to tangential events of…

Most of what he's saying makes sense to me as well. But isn't he a rich capitalist dude, who greatly benefited from the rise of the mentioned platforms? Thus incentivizing him greatly to take the decisions motivated by money and not some imaginary neutrality or "fight the bad behaviors" concept? He mentioned this tangentially right before delving into how hard those jobs are which one absolutely doesn't have to take.…

> So to me, the whole thread is like "running social platforms and making a lot of money is tricky, because a lot of people will rightfully hate you, but you still need to make the money, so... poor Elon?" I don't think so.

No, the whole thread is "running social platforms and making a lot of money is tricky, because a lot of people will rightfully hate you, so Elon should just not do it."

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