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Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com

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Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#392
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your Wikipedia link includes this: “The plant lost 1.3 GW of capacity which then was compensated by additional 9 power units in the thermal power station nearby.” From here: https://energo.dtek.com/en/media-center/press/dtek-tpps-comp... * As a result of an armed attack by the invaders on the Zaporozhia NPP, 1.3 GW of capacity generated by nuclear units has been lost.* If the power plant was I damaged it wouldn’t hav…

"If the power plant was I damaged it wouldn’t have lost capacity." The link stated it was not damaged, so another explanation would be it was partly shut down. Missing crew, safety precautions, who knows. It is a warzone.

They where very clear that damage occurred to the power plant not the physical reactor, while safety was maintained:

> In its statement the SNRIU said Zaporozhe's six power units "remain intact, the unit 1 reactor compartment auxiliary buildings have been damaged, which does not affect the safety of the unit. The systems and components important to the safety of the NPP are operational. At present, no changes in the radiation situation have been registered." https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/IAEA-appeal-afte...

>The fire, in a training building a few hundred metres from the reactors, was extinguished at 06:20 local time, SNRIU said. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said it had been told the fire at the site had not affected "essential equipment and plant personnel were taking mitigatory actions".

It’s however important to realize reactors need auxiliary systems outside the physical building for cooling. I guess it’s possible the attack was precise enough to avoid such damage, but I can only assume some good luck was involved.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery manufacturing, at least with the chemistries we have available right now, won't scale to the point where we can store several weeks worth of power in the foreseeable future. Afaik Power2Gas is the only currently available technology that can be scaled relatively quickly. Most countries already have the infrastructure for strategic gas reserves.

Why would you need to store several weeks worth of energy? > Most countries already have the infrastructure for strategic gas reserves. Some do. Some that you might think would, do not, UK for instance. "The Rough storage facility in the North Sea, owned by British Gas owner Centrica, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 following a government decision not to subsi…

You would want to store several weeks of energy so that you're prepared for once in a decade windstill cloudy freezing winter months without people freezing to death in their homes. How many weeks depends on how well your grid is interconnected and how much you've overprovisioned your generation capacity. But even one week worth of energy consumption is impractical to store in today's batteries.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#394
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years after Fukushima we had a even large evacuation done in California, 180,000 people (and the relocation of a fish hatchery) compared to 150,000 people in Japan. It did not make international news, the death toll was not estimated, and things went back to normal fairly fast. Large evacuations are rare but they aren't that uncommon. It just doesn't get the news attention. It is a bit like traffic deaths, whic…

Disasters like flood or fire don’t usually render large areas uninhabitable - people can return home, rebuild and live as usual. Nuclear incidents on the contrary have long term economic effects and public health dangers. My Russian grandfather died from cancer after unknowingly spending some time in unrestricted area of radioactive fallout 15 years after the incident (see Mayak plant [1] and Techa river [2]). The lo…

The discussion around Fukushima is not about the loss of land that got rendered uninhabitable, it is exclusively focused on the loss of life. If you want to change the discussion into be about the loss of land we also need to consider how an hydro power dam changes the landscape, turning habitable land into uninhabitable lakes or turning arid land into deserts by changing water flows. For the amount of energy that nuclear power produce, I am uncertain if land usage that can't be used for housing/farming is something that should be argued as an point against it.

It sad that your Russian grandfather died because the government was dishonest and didn't protect their citizens. I know similar stories from mining towns where especially radon tend to be of such high levels that people end up getting cancer and die. Most nations have regulations to prevent that but it took many lives before those regulations where in place. Fossil fuels are particular guilty in creating large uninhabitable areas because of increase radiation risks, but basically any mining has been guilty. Cut into the ground and significant amount of radioactive material will end up in the air and water.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#395
post #383
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds good. What is the argument against getting those plants back online if that’s how little time it will take? I assume Germany seeks to grow and prosper as a nation, not stagnate at prior energy usage levels, or make themselves overly dependent on imports from another but different nation?

There are multiple reasons, first that 2 years would still be a very optimistic time frame. The energy companies got a huge reimbursement for the shutdowns and are therefore not interested in prolonging, because it would actually cost them more money than investing in other technologies. But the biggest reason is sadly the German publics prolific anti-nuclear views. There is basically zero public support behind the i…

Well that’s just unfortunate, because more than likely that means they’ll always be dependent on some kind of energy imports when they don’t have to be.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#396
post #278
post #227

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Why do you think so? To me the argument sounds like: > no one died of radiation, since they were evacuated. The people who did die, because of the evacuation, shouldn’t count because they didn’t die from the radiation. The evacuation wasn’t necessary, which is proven since no one died from radiation. And the notion that more people would have died from the radiation if they didn’t evacuate is just ignored. Well, no o…

The downside of nuclear power is, potentially & in rare circumstances, a large number of people have to move. I don't want to trivialise that - it is a big cost. But it isn't exactly like we're talking a threat to anyone's health and well-being. And when I say "rare" I mean once, globally, every 25 years with 1970s plant designs. It is quite a bit safer now with the absurd safety standards people make nuclear keep. B…

The biggest downside right now is that it is to slow and to expensive to build new plants to make any meaningful impact in either gas deliveries from Russia or climate disaster.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#397
post #395
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple reasons, first that 2 years would still be a very optimistic time frame. The energy companies got a huge reimbursement for the shutdowns and are therefore not interested in prolonging, because it would actually cost them more money than investing in other technologies. But the biggest reason is sadly the German publics prolific anti-nuclear views. There is basically zero public support behind the i…

Well that’s just unfortunate, because more than likely that means they’ll always be dependent on some kind of energy imports when they don’t have to be.

Yeah, either that or major investments in energy storage. My strong feeling is that Nordic countries will invest more in nuclear and export to the rest of Europe.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#398

Here [1] is an interview with the German president of the BASE (Bundesamts für die Sicherheit der nuklearen Entsorgung) essentially the nuclear safety administration. He essentially calls the arguments about extending the nuclear powerplants difficult to comprehend. He lays out quite clearly why it doesn't work, and while the article addresses some of those points it does not back up any of the assertions with eviden…

I agree with you on the gas peakers comment.

Peaking power plants are typically used to provide the extra electricity needed when the supply of renewables start to fall off in the evening and the increased demand from HVAC and other loads coincide. They ramp fast (or start in a spinning reserve mode) to supply power in 5 to 10 mins. Nuclear plans can ramp but they're not really designed to ramp to replace all of the gas peakers.

Another issue is that the grid requires a certain amount of connected inertia in order to resist changes in frequency. Imbalance between generation and loads will lead to frequency changes. Frequency changes can affect motors, fans, negatively (over fluxing leading to premature failure), so there are typically protection systems that disconnect loads or generation outside of a nominal frequency band. Renewables compound this problem because they are variable (generation fluctuates), and because they are inverter based and provide no physical inertia. Therefore, as you increase renewables only, you see greater problems with frequency stability.

To combat the frequency issues today, you use more agile generators (typically gas) that can provide some inertia but also do fast power changes to arrest changes in frequency and restore system frequency (see primary frequency response).

It's hard to see how turning off all gas and displace it with nuclear will work unless you expect nuclear to provide all of the primary frequency response, which includes needing to both increase AND reduce power to stabilize frequency. Large nuclear plants with high inertia generators on their steam turbines do help keep frequency more stiff though, so that's helpful.

If you were to use nuclear to replace gas, you'd also need to make them fast ramping to manage variable renewables. Or you could retain some gas to be the variable load management units, but then you'd basically be keeping gas peakers.

Alternatively, if there is greater adoption of energy storage to help make renewables more dispatchable with more predictable power, that solves part of the frequency issue. I believe gas peakers typically run for under 4 hours a day, so 4 hour duration energy storage would be effective at retiring a lot of the gas except for that kept available as emergency power plants during disasters or weather events.

Part of the frequency and inertia problem will also get solved in the next decade or so. Generators provide an electrical response to the rate of change of frequency that serves to stabilize frequency called the inertial response. Essentially, the change in kinetic energy from one rotational velocity to a lower one results in an uncommanded power injection into the grid. This power injection then counteracts the lack of generation that led to the initial drop of frequency. Inverters are starting to get deployed with grid forming capability in which they can provide synthetic inertia, and over the next decade could reduce the need for synchronous inertia.

It's not an easy problem to solve so I always take sweeping recommendations with a grain of salt.

(I have been doing control system design for gas turbines, batteries, and renewable/thermal/battery hybrid systems for 15 years).

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#399
post #289
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article covers this. The electricity that would be produced by the plants is enough to offset 100% of Russian natural gas imports. Gas and electricity are not entirely fungible, but Germany uses enough natural gas to produce electricity to cover the reduced imports.

Gas and electricity are not at all fungible for Germany or the EU. You’ve repeatedly made this claim in the thread and other commenters posted detailed reports showing the use of gas in the German economy. It’s suicidal for the EU to give up gas short or mid term.

Gas used for electric production and nuclear electricity are absolutely fungible. I suspect that at least some nuclear power could be brought back online within months if there was a will to do so.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#400
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas and electricity are not at all fungible for Germany or the EU. You’ve repeatedly made this claim in the thread and other commenters posted detailed reports showing the use of gas in the German economy. It’s suicidal for the EU to give up gas short or mid term.

To make the point a little clearer - natural gas is an important resource for the chemical industry, for example input to the Haber-Bosch synthesis of Ammonia. The Hydrogen used is mostly gained from methane, that is natural gas. Ammonia is fundamental in producing fertilizer - cutting of natural gas could severely reduce fertilizer production, at a time when two of the largest grain exporters are at war and unlikely…

Sure but the article says 30% of Russian gas is used for electricity which is fungible with other electric production - nobody denies that Germany needs gas for other things.

Although if greens in Germany were actually committed to reducing energy use they would have subsidized converting buildings from gas heat to using heat pumps instead of subsidizing solar production in Germany.

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