Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#281

Post by ohthehugemanate » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:28 AM UTC

jcfrei wrote: post #97

choeger wrote: post #3

Being anti-nuclear is deeply engrained in the DNA of Germany's green party. Even more so than climate change. In fact, when the anti-nuclear movement started, climate change wasn't even a topic. In other words, the only thing that needs to happen is the German green party to admit a mistake in fighting nuclear power harder than fossile fuels...

It's not just the green parties. There's a sizeable part of the population in the German speaking world (and I'm sure elsewhere too) that just views nuclear power as something unnatural and perverted. Something that's always going to be more dangerous than beneficial. I think this notion started even before the Chernobyl accident but that plus Fukushima really reaffirmed the fears lots of people had. It's a very shor…

my personal experience living in several places in Germany: the whole appeal to nature argument is unreasonably effective here. Most germans will try an array of homeopathic remedies before taking ibuprofen. Most GP doctors advertise a secondary expertise in some woo or other, be it homeopathy, crystals, or osteopathy. It is downright tricky to find a doctor who will give you evidence based pharmaceuticals for your complaint; I can't tell you how many times I've come home from a doctor to look up the "medicine" they gave me, to find that it's some variant of hyper-diluted rosewater.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#282

Post by tarsinge » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:29 AM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #238

hedora wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're repeating some of the excuses the article addresses. - The author says they studied nuclear in grad school, and are probably therefore an expert. - They quantify the additional risk of meltdown due to delaying new safety regulations. It's negligible compared to operating plants according to the new regulations. - Their proposal would increase Germany's stockpile of nuclear waste by 3%, which is surely within e…

Fans of nuclear power really love those "negligible" risks, don't they? The general public not so much. Certainly not after "impossible accidents" keep happening. And then the nuclear fans say "Now it's all better, pinky promise with cherry on top!" Well... No, the author doesn't seem to be an expert. Also for his claims you don't need a nuclear engineering background, you need economics. If the political party doesn…

Usually in 2022 when a "fan" of nuclear power points "negligible" risks, it's regarding climate change, i.e. they think the industrial risk of not getting to the emissions targets in scenarios without a nuclear outweigh nuclear risks. Here is a recent relatively neutral study of different mix scenarios for 2050 in France with their different risks category assessed: https://assets.rte-france.com/prod/public/2022-01/Energy%20p...

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#283

Post by mike_d » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:32 AM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #145

steve_taylor wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just the German greens. Australia’s greens are staunchly anti-nuclear despite it being the only viable solution to the baseload problem, which renewables haven’t yet solved.

Isn't battery storage the baseload solution for renewable power? And it doesn't have to be lithium batteries, there are cheaper alternatives if you don't need the batteries to be that small.

The baseload solution for renewables is nuclear.

Most of the "concerns" people have are the result of propaganda and lobbying by the American Petroleum Institute. Most of the original flower power anti-nuclear groups were funded by oil.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#284

Post by satellite2 » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:32 AM UTC

The author first show that gas is mostly used for heating and then claim it can be substituted by turning the centrals back on this year. He skips over the fact that everyone would have to replace their heating infrastructure. He also skips over the fact that heating with electricity is much more expensive than with fossil fuels. Even at a war inflated price.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#285

Post by panick21_ » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:33 AM UTC

Its simple, the German population has a very strong anti nuclear bend going back to the Cold War. That is why no politics have the will to oppose this total idiocy.

They rather burn more coal and gas while pretending that renewables will do it all.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#286

Post by dzikimarian » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:33 AM UTC

nl wrote: post #276

dzikimarian wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chernobyl was no error per se. It was conscious decision with political background, possible, because entire system of values in USSR was upside down. In normal country there would be no reason to do any of that.

And Germany has never had any odd political issues?

This type of issues? No. I assume you mean nazis, but while it's hard to find words to describe their crimes, they had pretty robust approach to engineering. On the east side from the other hand ideology always beat logic.

Also, if we're going to assume, that everything we build will be foundation for the next Hitler, then there's hardly point in doing anything.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#287

Post by zeeZ » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:35 AM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #258

daniel-cussen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear is less safe than grid solar, it slightly beats rooftop solar because standing on roofs is dangerous and most solar installs are new. Yeah and making the solar panel, how green is that? I would like to add that they should bring in bouncy castles around homes when installing solar panels, the kids can play on them and primarily will definitely save the installer from falling. You could also package them tog…

Oh right, nobody ever thought to include the cost and effects of producing the solar panels!! I'm joking of course.

But how green is building a nuclear power plant? I imagine there's a lot of heavy machinery involved and lots of concrete involved.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#288

Post by mike_d » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:35 AM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #257

choeger wrote: post #3

Being anti-nuclear is deeply engrained in the DNA of Germany's green party. Even more so than climate change. In fact, when the anti-nuclear movement started, climate change wasn't even a topic. In other words, the only thing that needs to happen is the German green party to admit a mistake in fighting nuclear power harder than fossile fuels...

Opposition to nuclear power isn't a political ideology. You aren't for or against nuclear power because you don't generally like the people who are against nuclear power. I don't see the major arguments against nuclear power being negated by either climate change or the war in Ukraine. So no, there is no mistake. Nuclear power isn't the right way forward for Germany.

If you don't think anti-nuclear is political (or propaganda), I have a bridge to sell you.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2016/07/13/are-f...

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#289

Post by blub » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:36 AM UTC

hedora wrote: post #151

kitkat_new wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

continuing the nuclear power will have almost no impact on the war or dependence to Russia. The biggest issue by far is gas

The article covers this. The electricity that would be produced by the plants is enough to offset 100% of Russian natural gas imports. Gas and electricity are not entirely fungible, but Germany uses enough natural gas to produce electricity to cover the reduced imports.

Gas and electricity are not at all fungible for Germany or the EU. You’ve repeatedly made this claim in the thread and other commenters posted detailed reports showing the use of gas in the German economy.

It’s suicidal for the EU to give up gas short or mid term.

Re: Why Germany won’t keep its nuclear plants open

#290

Post by _ph_ » Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 7:46 AM UTC

merb wrote: post #44

fabian2k wrote: post #36

Shutting down the current reactors has been planned for a while, and that is simply not a decision that is trivial to reverse. You can disagree with that initial decision, but this does have significant effects and if you are in the process of shutting down everything it does get much more complicated to suddenly reverse course. The article seems rather dismissive towards many real problems like availability of nucle…

the article also doesnt mention france's gas consumption, which was mostly about electricity, while german uses the gas 50:50 (heat and electricity). basically nuclear won't replaces gas and gas won't replace nuclear. if we want to discuss about electricity generation, coal is the thing that germany could reduce with nuclear, but not gas. it's always the same thing about these articles, blame germany for a mistake (s…

So much this. While recently the energy production used a bit more gas (shifting from coal) due to less CO2 output, the main reason for gas in electricity generation is the ability to quickly switch power output to match quickly changing electricity consumption. You cannot replace that with nuclear or coal as both are rather slow switching.