A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem • Hacker News Board

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#751

Post by llbeansandrice » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

redbar0n wrote: post #724

llbeansandrice wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extreme example/edge case and if that's truly the case you are either not participating in good faith or would likely benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy. You're approaching the topic of a healthy marriage from game theory where your spouse is another player/opponent, not from empathy and good-faith participation or even just as a team with a common goal. Is your goal to "have it your way all the tim…

To be fair, it’s not really about coldly «saying something is important». I think the question is really better restated as: What if one person just feels more strongly about things (most or all of the time)? Should feelings always trump? Should feelings always be allowed to trump rationality/proportionality in a marriage conflict? PS: > You're approaching the topic of a healthy marriage from game theory made me laug…

I feel like this moves the goal posts but that's fine, this is a more legitimate question.

This is the actual hard part of the marriage/relationship that the commenter higher-up is talking about. Compromise is table stakes. Communicating well with your partner, making sure they are an equal participant and making sure they feel heard and valued is what's important.

Again, focusing on who is going to "win" is not a healthy perspective in my opinion. Questions like "do feelings beat rationality?" Is the same thing as saying "does paper beat rock?" The purpose of the article was not that dishes and minor arguments about dishes on the counter resulted in a divorce. The point is that she felt belittled and unheard. He was winning the dish battles, but lost his marriage.

>Should feelings always trump?

No! But they might! Each marriage and relationship is different and they change over time (as people tend to do). For one couple this could be true, but that doesn't really mean anything. Again, this approach is thinking about marriage as a series of small arguments to win, with your spouse as the opponent.

Compromise is table stakes. Whether the dishes got done or not really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not these people got divorced, the issue was a lack of communication and one partner not feeling heard.

This is a less-bad framing of the earlier question, but it still suffers from the same flawed perspective. The goal is to have a healthy and happy marriage where both individuals feel heard and respected and like a team.

What if you feel more strongly about something than your partner? Do you feel like your thoughts and feelings on the matter are being heard? (Note: feeling heard is not the same as "I got my way") Do you feel like an equal team member in the decision? It's okay to feel annoyed or frustrated at the result, that's part of life, you don't always get your way. But it's a huge difference between "I felt like my opinion was fully heard and considered, even if we didn't decide on my point of view." and "I felt dismissed, belittled, and unheard. $spouse/boss/friend/person didn't really listen to what I had to say and I don't feel valued."

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#752

Post by jcpst » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

I just referenced back to this article when I got a text from my frustrated wife. I was able to give her a well articulated reply based on this. This was super valuable for me.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#753

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 4:42 PM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #410

Your wife left because her feelings changed. That's all there is to it. End of story. Of course, this is completely unsatisfactory to a man. Men torture themselves trying desperately to think of the reason why her feelings changed. Was it that thing I said 2 years ago? Would it have been different if I did a thing on that one morning 6 months ago? Surely if I can figure out why this happened then there will be a solu…

[deleted]

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#754

Post by RandomChance » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 4:42 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #589

jimkleiber wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate you sharing this. Reminds me of a class I took at the University of Illinois, it was a seminar in entrepreneurship for engineers, if I remember correctly. I believe a CEO of a $100M+ company came in and gave a speech. His first slide had a PowerPoint, on which he put something like, "3...2...1." Then he said, "3 wives, 2 divorces, and 1 heart attack. That's the real cost of entrepreneurship." I've rememb…

Mark Cuban had a different perspective when he was younger. “I went through girlfriends (who threatened) — ‘It is your business or me,'” the Shark Tank investor recalled. “And I was like — ‘What is your name again?’ It was just non-stop.” https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/shark-tank-star-mar... I'm not endorsing that comment. I just thought it was interesting to see how a notable entrepreneur approached relati…

To me, statements like this perfectly illustrate a situation where at least one side wants a form of companionship besides "potential life partner", and that is totally ok if everyone involved is aware of that.

In the US our culture tends to really emphasize dating as a step towards finding the mythical "one" and getting married, and it's "bad" to have sex or really any form of intimacy unless you are in a relationship. When you are younger this is normally the assumed basis for a relationship, and complicates having any form of companionship that is not based on "Maybe we should tie our lives together forever!".

Obviously as we get older and gain experience with the varied forms relationships can take it's easier to realize (and even admit/discuss!) that one partner is really looking for more of a good friend with benefits situation than a "life partner audition".

I translate "It is your business or me" as "I require more of your attention than I have been getting to continue investing myself in this relationship" - which is also very valid.

If sex work was not so stigmatized, arranging the attentions of a high class escort for a year would probably leave everyone involved much happier. (I am not talking about simply sex here, but talking, attending parties, all the normal early date stuff, but starting from a position of "I want a companionship, but I can't invest my time in a relationship right now. I do happen to other assets I can invest instead if you are interested? )

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#755

Post by redbar0n » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

llbeansandrice wrote: post #751

redbar0n wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it’s not really about coldly «saying something is important». I think the question is really better restated as: What if one person just feels more strongly about things (most or all of the time)? Should feelings always trump? Should feelings always be allowed to trump rationality/proportionality in a marriage conflict? PS: > You're approaching the topic of a healthy marriage from game theory made me laug…

I feel like this moves the goal posts but that's fine, this is a more legitimate question. This is the actual hard part of the marriage/relationship that the commenter higher-up is talking about. Compromise is table stakes. Communicating well with your partner, making sure they are an equal participant and making sure they feel heard and valued is what's important. Again, focusing on who is going to "win" is not a he…

It was not so much a question on _who_ is going to win, as to _what_ is going to win. In other words: What are deemed legitimate criteria, and even the most important criteria, in a conflict? It’s a question of value systems. Making feelings paramount, like several above suggested, seems like a pragmatic quick fix. If one part obviously feels so much stronger than the other, why shouldn’t the other just give way? But it is not without its problems. Stronger feelings doesn’t mean more right, and doesn’t mean the holder has a more justified basis for being accommodated. Even though it may patch things up more easily in the short term.

There’s also a personality component: some people tend to feel more strongly about most things, and others may not feel particularly strong about anything (although they are not void of feelings/opinions). Causing relational skew. The latter person giving way, to smooth things over, and to not stir strong feelings in the other, can turn out to blow up hard in the long run.

But yeah, as you say: HOW something is done is oftentimes just as important as WHAT is done (the outcome).

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#756

Post by llbeansandrice » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

redbar0n wrote: post #755

llbeansandrice wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this moves the goal posts but that's fine, this is a more legitimate question. This is the actual hard part of the marriage/relationship that the commenter higher-up is talking about. Compromise is table stakes. Communicating well with your partner, making sure they are an equal participant and making sure they feel heard and valued is what's important. Again, focusing on who is going to "win" is not a he…

It was not so much a question on _who_ is going to win, as to _what_ is going to win. In other words: What are deemed legitimate criteria, and even the most important criteria, in a conflict? It’s a question of value systems. Making feelings paramount, like several above suggested, seems like a pragmatic quick fix. If one part obviously feels so much stronger than the other, why shouldn’t the other just give way? But…

> The latter person giving way, to smooth things over, and to not stir strong feelings in the other, can turn out to blow up hard in the long run.

You're still approaching this as "A's feelings vs B's rationale". The original article is highlighting one (common) path this takes: one person's feelings are not being heard and they feel devalued and belittled. But you're still approaching it as partner vs partner rather than as a team vs the issue with a goal of everyone feeling loved, heard, and understood.

It is on both sides to make sure that the other person feels heard and an equal partner. If person B feels like their rationale isn't being considered at all, or that their feelings are not, it's the same situation.

>The latter person giving way, to smooth things over,

A valid feeling is that they are giving a lot. Their partner feels strongly about things ABC, but there's no free lunch. Changes to your behavior obviously have consequences. Folks are giving specific examples like "My spouse cares about laundry being in the hamper, I don't really so I don't mind putting in the extra effort to make them happy." But if one feels like they are giving more than they are getting, that's a communication issue beyond whether the dishes get done. The same as the person who feels strongly not being heard.

Your example: "can turn out to blow up hard in the long run" is necessarily different. There's resentment implicitly brewing. Maybe the spouse often starts these conversations more aggressively. Something like "Why can't you ever put your clothes away?" It starts off aggressive, is accusatory, and assumes that the spouse is acting in bad faith.

Put more succinctly, if things do blow-up in the long run then there's a similar communication failure that has occurred and one member of the partner ship doesn't feel like a capable and equal partner in the eyes of their spouse.

HOW something is done: how these feelings and thoughts are communicated is not just as important oftentimes, but is absolutely more important always. Specifically for small stuff like dishes, laundry, etc. "What" wins is entirely irrelevant and will vary from issue to issue and couple to couple.

If it's something more consequential like having children, parenting values, financial values, etc. that's more fundamental that the topic here and is likely just two people who are incompatible with irreconcilable values.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#757

Post by redbar0n » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 7:15 PM UTC

llbeansandrice wrote: post #756

redbar0n wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was not so much a question on _who_ is going to win, as to _what_ is going to win. In other words: What are deemed legitimate criteria, and even the most important criteria, in a conflict? It’s a question of value systems. Making feelings paramount, like several above suggested, seems like a pragmatic quick fix. If one part obviously feels so much stronger than the other, why shouldn’t the other just give way? But…

> The latter person giving way, to smooth things over, and to not stir strong feelings in the other, can turn out to blow up hard in the long run. You're still approaching this as "A's feelings vs B's rationale". The original article is highlighting one (common) path this takes: one person's feelings are not being heard and they feel devalued and belittled. But you're still approaching it as partner vs partner rather…

> You're still approaching this as "A's feelings vs B's rationale".

Not necessarily. I also wrote:

«If one part obviously feels so much _stronger_ than the other, why shouldn’t the other just give way? … some people tend to feel _more strongly_ about most things, and others may not feel particularly strong about anything (although _they are not void of feelings/opinions_).»

I’m thinking about the degree of feelings involved. (No one is fully and solely rational, after all.)

I agree with you on the other points you make.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#758

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #720

s1artibartfast wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't understand the complaint here. It sounds like your wife is trying to get you, incrementally, to act like a responsible adult The fundamental conflict is that the person and their wife's goals are not aligned. If the husband does not want to develop into a "responsible adult" in this respect, their goals are not aligned. A good partner can help the other achieve their goals, but but if there is no alignment o…

> The fundamental conflict is that the person and their wife's goals are not aligned. It would be that, if all goals were equally good and individual taste was the ultimate criterium (which in some cultures are, not always the best ones). Otherwise not wanting to "devel into a responsible adult" doesn't sound like an issue of "conflict of goals" (any more than one parent being an absentee parent would merely be a "co…

Some people just don't want to develop into an adult or be responsible parents. You can call this a development issue, but at some point it is also a problem of partner selection. If your partner has no interest in resolving their issues to your satisfaction, you are in for a rocky relationship continually dragging them Kicking and Screaming into something they do not want.

At some point, your partners development issue becomes your own partner selection and compatibility problem.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#759

Post by llbeansandrice » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 10:40 PM UTC

redbar0n wrote: post #757

llbeansandrice wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The latter person giving way, to smooth things over, and to not stir strong feelings in the other, can turn out to blow up hard in the long run. You're still approaching this as "A's feelings vs B's rationale". The original article is highlighting one (common) path this takes: one person's feelings are not being heard and they feel devalued and belittled. But you're still approaching it as partner vs partner rather…

> You're still approaching this as "A's feelings vs B's rationale". Not necessarily. I also wrote: «If one part obviously feels so much _stronger_ than the other, why shouldn’t the other just give way? … some people tend to feel _more strongly_ about most things, and others may not feel particularly strong about anything (although _they are not void of feelings/opinions_).» I’m thinking about the degree of feelings i…

I suppose the statement I made is slightly imprecise, but the framing is still A's feelings and rationale vs B's feelings and rationale. Which is the entire paradigm I'm saying is bunk and pointless.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#760

Post by cowvin » Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 10:50 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #726

mensetmanusman wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many would argue that material poverty is less important than poverty of the soul. This is why poor countries are often much happier than rich countries.

Solitary confinement is one of the worst punishments you give to a human. As you get richer your status will isolate you from other people because you don't share their particular kind of suffering. One of the biggest problems is the fact that anything you can do can be done better by paying someone else to do nothing but the thing you want to do yourself.

It's hard to sympathize with people feeling isolated because they're rich. They could at any time remedy their situation and return to the world of normal people. They choose to be in that situation.