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Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

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Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#181

Post by trasz »

joshuahedlund wrote: post #173
RalfWausE wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cough internment of japanese cough

When China shuts down their internment, officially condemns it, gives restitution to the interned, and stops censoring any education, discussion and criticism of their internment on message boards in their own country but instead welcomes it as part of the self-correcting mechanisms that allow a nation to continually bend towards greater justice and not repeat the old injustices, then the situations will be equivalen…

Let me remind you that a number of US states is fighting to introduce censorship of education, because apparently teaching objective truth is "anti-american".

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#182

Post by naoqj »

wickedsickeune wrote: post #153
naoqj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s normal to ask questions: if nothing has ever happened to the US for similar abuses, why should something happen to any other countries?

I wonder why you would think that it's normal. If something is unjust it should be prosecuted, regardless of the past. There will always be criminals who get away with crimes, this doesn't mean that we should give up.

Might is right.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#183

Post by trasz »

joshuahedlund wrote: post #160
adventured wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US did have the moral high ground, which is a remarkable thing given what we're talking about: that's how horrific what China is doing is. Were the Japanese released from that internment? Yes. Were they genocided? No. Were they stripped of their culture, heritage, social lives, and tortured for decades due to their beliefs? No. Does the US today recognize the Japanese internment as a moral crime? Yes. That last o…

> Does the US today recognize the Japanese internment as a moral crime? Yes. Not only is it recognized as a moral crime, but the US government passed a law to give restitution to interned people. Does that clean the slate? No. Does that make it ok? No, of course not. The point is not that the US is perfect or even good. The point is that the US system allows open discussion, criticism, protest, legislating, etc. It h…

The point is that you forget all the inconvenient facts - from American national guard murdering students in broad daylight, without any kind of punishment afterwards, to secret military kangaroo courts - and build your arguments on plain ignorance ("China has none of that").

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#184

Post by duairc »

okl wrote: post #77
NmAmDa wrote: post #67

It is clear that many people (sometimes with good intentions) would bring this logic to any discussion about this matter. . China is having their Muslim population put into camps and they live in a horrible injustice situation. They are targeted because of their religion /ethnicity. Chinese government saying that US is being hypocrite because they did so and so in Iraq and whatever happened after 9/11 from abuses..et…

> Chinese government saying that US is being hypocrite because they did so and so in Iraq and whatever happened after 9/11 from abuses. That is an argument against abuse, not in favor. What are their arguments to support their actions?

It's a completely fair question to ask what is the Chinese justification.

I found this documentary[1] by CGTN about the recent history of extremism and terrorist attacks in Xinjiang to be useful in outlining some of the context for this.

These terrorist attacks were a real problem and have resulted in the deaths of over 1000 civilians (including Uyghurs). China's argument is basically their re-education "camps" are an attempt to address the underlying causes of this, which is basically economic under-development, lack of education and job opportunities. So China basically identified the people who were involved in these groups and susceptible to radicalisation by them, and set up these schools for them which would teach them skills, including Mandarin, that would help find decent jobs that could provide for them and their families, which eliminates the underlying material basis of the support from some parts of the population that the terrorists may have had.

Having said that, there is still a huge discrepancy in what China says it's doing and what the west claims it's doing. Western sources claim that these are actually "concentration camps" and that there are as many as one or even two million Uyghurs interred there. These allegations are dubious for a number of reasons, but that's a topic for a different post.

Like I said, your question is the right question: what is the Chinese justification for this? And I think it's fair to say their answer is at least plausible on the surface of things and internally consistent. But it leads us to another question: if the claims of western sources of one million plus Uyghurs in "concentration camps" are true, then how does the west explain China's motive for that? China isn't stupid. Why would it put 10% of the population of an entire province in a concentration camp? Are they just that cartoonishly evil? It doesn't really add up to me.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqlzunwilGM

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#185

Post by tablespoon »

BobbyJo wrote: post #110
blueflow wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be okay if the US simply stopped invading some countries or toppling random governments every 5 years. Many people of the rest of the world wish for the responsible US politicians to be put away. I hope the American perpetrators find similar ends. Its an awful kind of mockery to see the US displaying themselves as the hand of justice in the Xinjiang situation. I wish countries like the Netherlands or Switzerland…

> I'd be okay if the US simply stopped invading some countries or toppling random governments every 5 years. Me too, not sure what that has to do with anything. > Many people of the rest of the world wish for the responsible US politicians to be put away. I hope the American perpetrators find similar ends. ok? Not sure where that fits in though. > Its an awful kind of mockery to see the US displaying themselves as th…

>> I'd be okay if the US simply stopped invading some countries or toppling random governments every 5 years.

> Me too, not sure what that has to do with anything.

Nothing about the topic at hand. It's a distraction, an OT axe to grind, or both.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#186

Post by joshuahedlund »

trasz wrote: post #181
joshuahedlund wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When China shuts down their internment, officially condemns it, gives restitution to the interned, and stops censoring any education, discussion and criticism of their internment on message boards in their own country but instead welcomes it as part of the self-correcting mechanisms that allow a nation to continually bend towards greater justice and not repeat the old injustices, then the situations will be equivalen…

Let me remind you that a number of US states is fighting to introduce censorship of education, because apparently teaching objective truth is "anti-american".

And yet you can openly criticize those actions, mobilize people to fight against it, file lawsuits, create and distribute alternative resources to continue to educate about whatever is being censored, and no one will stop you.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#187

Post by dundarious »

xtian wrote: post #134
plouffy wrote: post #8

Holly molly, the whatsaboutism in these comments.

You can call it “whataboutism”, but the only practical outcome of this performative caring in my lifetime has been the justification of endless wars, increased arms dealing, and brutal economic sanctions, which help no one but the US elite. I am an American, not a “global citizen”. My responsibility is to America. Let the people of other countries take moral responsibility for their governments. To pretend that Ameri…

Yes, anyone actually interested in maintaining Liberal Hegemony would be better positioned if they tried to make the US actually like the "shining city on the hill". Instead the US "projects its values" by committing the "crime against peace" that contains within it all the other war crimes and that's against the UN charter, aggression, on a regular basis. Another way the US "spreads democracy" is by providing full military and diplomatic support (usually by stifling all criticism rather than full-throated support) for highly repressive regimes and full-on wars, including with the use of landmines, cluster bombs, white phosphorous, etc.

A particularly egregious example of this was the US condemnation of Russia at the UN for using cluster bombs in Ukraine, when the US has directly used some cluster bombs in Yemen in the last few years, and continues to supply massive quantities to Saudi Arabia. This claim is often "disputed" by saying that the US stopped manufacturing these weapons years ago, but with stockpiles as high as the US has, that is no refutation at all.

Focusing primarily on these US failings is exactly what a US person should do.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#188

Post by lenkite »

BobbyJo wrote: post #169
lenkite wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point was that didn't happen. If we were putting people there solely for their religion and ethnicity, it'd be much more than a thousand. It would be millions... like in Xinjiang. Tens of thousands passed through Abu Ghraib too in Iraq. A truckload of torture and prisoner abuse done to people of only ONE ethnicity. People lost limbs in prison. No one in the US administration paid for these crimes against humanit…

> Tens of thousands passed through Abu Ghraib too in Iraq. A truckload of torture and prisoner abuse done to people of only ONE ethnicity. If we put Iraqis in prison because of their religion and ethnicity, there would have been millions locked up. In Xinjiang, people are put in camps because of their religion and ethnicity, that's why millions are locked up. Key word: because > Some folks in the US govt who were in…

> In Xinjiang, people are put in camps because of their religion and ethnicity, that's why millions are locked up.

Well, it's not by Religion. If so, China would have ~45 million muslims permanently imprisoned. Contrary to popular belief, the folks in Xinjiang don't make up the majority of Muslims in China. Those would be the Hui who make up ~3% of the population just by themselves.

It is indeed deeply distressing that Uyghurs are detained for months, under-go re-education before being released. And torture if they fail to comply. But we have an international council for that - the UNHRC. The US has no leg to stand on to individually judge other nations with their extra-ordinary violent history and propaganda in the modern era.

> Sometimes murderers snitch on murderers..

Indeed and such people should be treated for the evil hypocrites they truly are until they pay for their crimes. American citizens can support them and be sanctimonious about this, but the rest of the world (esp Middle-East/Asia) will take it for what it truly is:

"Might Makes Right and Daddy USA is Mightier Than You, So None Can Judge Us, But We Can Judge You".

The US should make make a clear, evidenced case at UNHRC, hold an international hearing and attempt a resolution. But hey, then everything would need to be questioned and analysed from more than one party.

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#189

Post by duairc »

NmAmDa wrote: post #99
okl wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese government saying that US is being hypocrite because they did so and so in Iraq and whatever happened after 9/11 from abuses. That is an argument against abuse, not in favor. What are their arguments to support their actions?

Chinese government (propaganda) is usually deploying this logic to suppress the discussion about their actions. It is a wide spread tactic that we see everyday. It is not like china is ever interested in helping people in Iraq, Afghanistan.. they could just stop doing the same (if not worse) as a good well gesture.

China is actually interested in helping people in Afghanistan. They sent aid[1] during the winter crisis and they have called for the return of the assets of the Afghan people that have been stolen by the United States[2].

[1] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3160159/ch...

[2] https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-02-17/China-calls-for-return...

Re: Former Xinjiang prisoner arrives in U.S. as key witness to abuses

#190

Post by trasz »

I think one crucial thing people forget about Xinjiang is the context: namely, why those camps are there. They are a way of fighting terrorism - an alternative to how the West is handling this problem, which is killing those people from safe distance. US is propping up Xinjiang subject, because if China is successful - if they can show those people can be brought back into society - then it proves again how wrong the American invasion on Middle East was.
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