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Europe is investing heavily in trains

nytimes.com

301–310 of 654 posts

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#301
Mildly unrelated to the article at hand, but I wish Amtrak had better quality (faster and more consistent) wifi onboard for NE regional and other non-Acela trains. I think even the Acela doesn't have high speed wifi.

If I could work during a 6+ hour journey it would really change the equation on traveling for me. The desks that are available on these trains is a huge change from the tiny lapdesks on flights. The thing people miss about trains, I think, is that you can have these comforts. You can have a cafe car with real coffee and snacks. Multiple outlets, etc. I don't really mind the journey taking a bit longer or being more expensive if it's not dead time and I can work.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This is not sustainable.

Why?

The economics are quite involved, and can be easily skewed depending on what externalized costs you choose to include in your analysis.

Superficially, flying has relatively lower infrastructure costs because it only needs the two endpoints (no road, no track, no bridges, no tunnels -- all expensive items). That impacts both the initial capital cost, and the ongoing investment in maintenance.

Similarly, planes are fast: above a fairly short distance, it's much quicker to fly (by jet plane) than to travel by train or road vehicle.

But airports are difficult to access, being unwelcome in the middle of cities, and so there's a need to get to the airport as part of your journey. That part of the trip likely requires road or rail transport, and it's the most capital-intensive bits of the road/rail (ie. through urban areas).

The fuel cost of planes is also higher per passenger-distance. And beyond just simply purchasing the fuel, it's much easier (for instance) to electrify a train or car than a passenger plane. So how you account for the carbon cost will make a big difference to your result.

For the last 20 years or so, short-trip flights have been superficially cheap. The most obvious missing cost is the impact of using fossil fuel (and potentially that's even worse at high altitude), but there are other factors like the (ab)use of precarious labour, government subsidies for both fuel and facilities, noise impact, etc.

Whether it's ultimately sustainable or not all depends on what costs you choose to factor in.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#303
post #26

Here in Germany, for as long as I can remember, the government praises itself every year for investing as much in rail as never before. I have not noticed the service quality to change for the better over the last 15 years. The ever-rising investments seem to be only enough to keep the status quo of the crumbling infrastructure.

I think there's two factors playing into this: first, Germany has had a high level of sefvice quality with trains for the last 15 years, compared to much of the world, there's little to improve and second, DB had become a HUGE holding company of many kinds of business endeavours and rail service is not in the states hand anymore, while the company "optimizes" for profit which makes travel aside of high traffic routes…

> the company "optimizes" for profit

Well, if my single unit of university economics taught me anything, its that you have produced the most efficient possible rail system and Germans are getting exactly what they want. Congratulations!

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#304
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen can be produced electrically from water. A positively stupendous amount of electrolysis equipment will need to be built out, but there will be demand for as much as can be produced. Burning hydrogen produces mainly water. Burned in an engine, it also produces nitrous oxides, so probably some ammonia would be dissolved in to scavenge that. Liquid hydrogen takes up a lot more room than kerosene. The insulated…

Just because the tank is light, doesn't mean that a completed fuel carriage will be much lighter than any other car.

A tanker that holds 80,000 pounds of kerosine will hold about 8000 pounds of LH2 in the same dimensionality. 0.07 = density of LH2, Density of water 1.0, kerosine 0.7 +/- varies with grade. So it take 10 times the cubeage plus Dewar grade insulation. At a permeant depot they will have a super refrigerator to condense boil off into LH2. They are trying to get a viable clathrate hydrate to hold a higher density form of bound but not reacted Hydrogen

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#305

As an American who doesn't drive, the experience of trains in the EU compared to the US is just delightful. Yes, there are super cheap flights and I used them often for longer haul trips but the trains were always amazing- I've done trips including Mariupol to Lviv, Budapest to Berlin, and Berlin to Munich and always had a great experience. The Romania-Chisinau line is quite old but part of its charm. I see a lot of…

> The Romania-Chisinau line is quite old but part of its charm.

As a tourist when you have all the time in the world, I would agree it's part of the charm. When the development of your economy depends on such a neglected and terrible line, it's an unbelievable nightmare for people living in either country (Personal anecdotes support this).

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#306

Observations from a frequent train traveller in Germany and Japan: - Train Travel works when the frequency of trains is so high that you do not need to think about "a" connection, but instead just choose the "next" connection. - Any significant number of delayed trains are a problem when one has important appointments. Morning meetings require an overnight trip, even if an early morning connection would usually work.…

Curious what you dislike about the Siemens trains? We use them all over Austria and I quite like them.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet this keeps a lot of national airlines afloat and they're already barely afloat, if they start taxing kerosene they'll require even more subsidies from their governments.

The point was that if train was cheaper than flying OP would fly less. Of course that means we'd have fewer airlines.

That wasn't really the point. He was surprised that this tax-free situation is not addressed and I just gave a (of many) reason why they might not want to change that.

I think your new point is optimistic at best. You would have to switch trains quite often and the time it takes would probably weigh heavier than the price. Especially between EU countries, within country flying is not really that big in EU.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#308
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A short answer for Germany would be: the system is operating at its absolute limits. The results are employee burnout and bad reliability. An example: a few years ago, they introduced a new way to reduce delays caused by trains arriving so late at their destination that they cannot make their scheduled return trip. This is the so-called "Pofalla-Turn", named after the manager who supported it: if a train has a delay…

Amtrak does that sometimes (the train and/or crew die on the rails) but then they produce a bus from somewhere and get you to your destination. At least in the US, once a company has accepted you on your journey they have to eventually get you to your destination, or get you to agree to give up. One time the train even stopped and told people trying to make a connection to get out; they'd called taxis to meet the oth…

I don't live in Germany, but I'm pretty sure they'll be another train available. Probably in about 30 minutes (or less if the train is so late that the next train has caught up with it). The inconvenience is having to get off of one train and onto another.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#309
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A short answer for Germany would be: the system is operating at its absolute limits. The results are employee burnout and bad reliability. An example: a few years ago, they introduced a new way to reduce delays caused by trains arriving so late at their destination that they cannot make their scheduled return trip. This is the so-called "Pofalla-Turn", named after the manager who supported it: if a train has a delay…

> if a train has a delay of over 30 minutes, the train will often just stop at some station I've seen that happen in London, sadly, although it's less of a problem given the general frequency and other alternatives (bus, etc.) Also the "if the train is going to be delayed enough to cause payouts, just take it out of service before the deadline" trick.

In London it's often done to try to stop the "no bus for an hour then 3 come along at once" phenomena and even out the service. Personally I think it's a big improvement over the alternative.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land transport yes, but the operational cost of long distance trains is quite a bit higher per passenger-mile than planes

Is it though? Or is it the fact that airlines are able to externalize their environmental costs, and are generally both under-taxed and subsidized. [edit] I'm not saying that rail isn't subsidized - it usually is, and often heavily, to be clear. It's the environmental impact that's the thrust of my claim.

> externalize their environmental costs

It's that + Every step of the aviation industry is subsidized by state actors. oil companies are also incentivised to support as airlines are a massive consumer of karosene that would otherwise be a cheap byproduct of oil refining

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